D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Urriak Uruk]

eberron was designed to in principle be able to have anything from dnd in just recontextualised hence it never need that.
but you might have a point.

This is true, but there isn't a segment of the book saying, "Here is how to integrate warforged, shifters, artificiers etc. into your own kitchen sink setting." I don't think there should be either.

Van Richten's does give material on how to create your own Domain of Dread, but even this is still firmly within the bounds of the Ravenloft setting.

 

[Yaarel]

Your last third is just not a thing for other 5E published settings, and I see no reason for why it should be for Dark Sun.

Eberron doesn't devote a third of its book to "Hey, here's how to use this material for not-Eberron!" That whole premise is silly, because the book is trying to get you to play Dark Sun, not a different setting.

Putting in a third of your book for people who aren't actually going to play Dark Sun is only wading into the pool instead of doing a full dive. You've got to commit to writing a Dark Sun book and use every page to sell the material, not half-ass it.

I didnt say a third of a book, I said a third section. The section is brief.

Most settings give advice for how to use content in other settings. What makes Dark Sun different, is its tropes are so distinctive, some things work ok, and somethings really dont work. For example, putting Tiefling into Dark Sun really doesnt work, but surely some players will want to do it, so give a blurb to help them to flavor them for the Dark Sun tropes if they insist on Tieflings.

Heh, @Steampunkette, I agree it is "third-ass", and I wouldnt use the third section myself. But it is probably useful to some players, and might even be an inspiration to give a DM ideas for something homebrew.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Most settings give advice for how to use content in other settings. What makes Dark Sun different, is its tropes are so distinctive, some things work ok, and somethings really dont work. For example, putting Tiefling into Dark Sun really doesnt work, but surely some players will want to do it, so give a blurb to help them to flavor them for the Dark Sun tropes if they insist on Tieflings.

So you say "Most settings give advice for how to use content in other settings."

They actually don't. I'm searching my digital copies of several published settings like Ravnica, Eberron, Theros, Ravenloft, and none of these mention keywords like "Forgotten Realms," or "Greyhawk," or "Mystara." I'm struggling to find any reference to running material in people's home games either.

Now, modules/adventure do this all the time in 5E. But published setting do not; they are trying to sell you on the setting, not on getting you to use the material for another one.

 

[Yaarel]

This is true, but there isn't a segment of the book saying, "Here is how to integrate warforged, shifters, artificiers etc. into your own kitchen sink setting." I don't think there should be either.

Actually, the Eberron setting has exactly this kind of thing. For example.

"
ARTIFICERS IN OTHER WORLDS
Eberron is the world most associated with artificers, yet the class can be found throughout the D&D multiverse. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the island of Lantan is home to many artificers, and in the world of Dragonlance, tinker gnomes are often members of this class. The strange technologies in the Barrier Peaks of the World of Greyhawk have inspired some folk to walk the path of the artificer, and in Mystara, various nations employ artificers to keep airships and other wondrous devices operational. In the City of Sigil, artificers share discoveries from throughout the cosmos, and one in particular-the gnome inventor Vi-has run a multiverse-spanning business from there since leaving the world of her birth, Eberron. In the world-city Ravnica, the lzzet League trains numerous artificers, the destructiveness of whom is unparalleled in other worlds-except, perhaps, by the tinker gnomes of Krynn.

"



In the case of Dark Sun, the import is probably more important than the export: how to make content from other settings somehow fit in the flavor of Dark Sun. Hence a brief third section.



I dont want the multiverse connected to Dark Sun in any way. The multiverse simply doesnt exist. But many players want to connect Dark Sun to the multiverse, and the third section can briefly advise how to do this for players who want this optional variant.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Actually, the Eberron setting has exactly this kind of thing. For example.

"
ARTIFICERS IN OTHER WORLDS
Eberron is the world most associated with artificers, yet the class can be found throughout the D&D multiverse. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the island of Lantan is home to many artificers, and in the world of Dragonlance, tinker gnomes are often members of this class. The strange technologies in the Barrier Peaks of the World of Greyhawk have inspired some folk to walk the path of the artificer, and in Mystara, various nations employ artificers to keep airships and other wondrous devices operational. In the City of Sigil, artificers share discoveries from throughout the cosmos, and one in particular-the gnome inventor Vi-has run a multiverse-spanning business from there since leaving the world of her birth, Eberron. In the world-city Ravnica, the lzzet League trains numerous artificers, the destructiveness of whom is unparalleled in other worlds-except, perhaps, by the tinker gnomes of Krynn.

"



In the case of Dark Sun, the import is probably more important than the export: how to make content from other settings somehow fit in the flavor of Dark Sun. Hence a brief third section.

Looking through my digital copy of Eberron: Rising from the Last War, I do not see this text. When I do a google search of it, it sends me to the Unearthed Arcana article for the artificer, not the book itself.

EDIT: Image below, this is not in the actual book, it's in a UA article.

 

[Yaarel]

Looking through my digital copy of Eberron: Rising from the Last War, I do not see this text. When I do a google search of it, it sends me to the Unearthed Arcana article for the artificer, not the book itself.

EDIT: Image below, this is not in the actual book, it's in a UA article.

View attachment 138805

I am looking at the Eberron book, Rising from the Last War. It is in the book. Page 54.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I am looking at the Eberron book, Rising from the Last War. It is in the book. Page 54.

Ah I see what I did wrong, apologies.

Anyway, if we keep this material as short blurbs, this doesn't bother me. I certainly don't want chapters on it, but a blurb per class is fine to me.

 

[Yaarel]

Ah I see what I did wrong, apologies.

Anyway, if we keep this material as short blurbs, this doesn't bother me. I certainly don't want chapters on it, but a blurb per class is fine to me.

I am fine with short blurbs for the third section.

For the first section, I want total immersion in the Dark Sun setting, and not even a hint of the default Forgotten Realms of the Players Handbook.

For the second section, somewhere in between. Enough flavor and mechanics added to make the option function seemlessly within Dark Sun. For example, good backgrounds for Barbarian. Explaining Eldritch Knight regarding defiling and preserving. Maybe a psionic archetype for the Bard class. And so on. Generally, there is no room in purest Dark Sun for other lineages, but there is some room for various class options. Some local settings need full treatment.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding Dray. I dont want to see them in the first section for purest Dark Sun. But they might make sense in the second section for thematically appropriate options, with the understanding that this Dragonborn ethnicity is an accidental byproduct of arcane experiments that were trying to figure out how to become the first draconic Sorcerer Kings.

 

[Yaarel]

It goes without say, the first section is the foreground, the featured options that define the tone of Dark Sun.

The second section is in the background, more peripheral to the central first section. For Example. Barbarian exists but might be less common and out in the wilderness.