D&D 2E What would you want in a 2e AD&D inspired RPG?

[pemerton]

It was called "Weapon Proficiency".

Do you mean "weapon specialisation"?

That (along with general proficiency rules) has its own issues. If you design the game around viable warrior builds being ultra-specialists, you have to be prepared to accommodate that in other areas of the game (eg magic item allocation, training opportunities etc - 4e is the most robust example of this in the D&D family of games, I think).

 

[Legatus Legionis]

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[pemerton]

Not exactly.

Example: A warrior starts off with 4 weapon proficiencies and gets a new one every 3 levels (AD&D PHB, page 50, table 34).

One gets to use a weapon proficiency (1 slot per weapon).

A fighter can then specialize in a weapon by devoting an extra weapon proficiency slot (total of two) on the same weapon.

I know what weapon proficiencies are. But they do not give fighters any sort of bonus to hit or damage. They do obviate a non-proficiency penalty to hit, but that is equally true for PCs of every class, all of whom engage with the weapon proficiency rules.

 

[Legatus Legionis]

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[pemerton]

There are penalties for using a weapon one is unfamiliar with.
No penalties using one is trained/proficient in.

I know. I stated that in the post you replied to.

A Warrior whom has Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon gets +1 hit, +2 damage rolls. 2AD&D PHB page 52, 1989.

I know. That's why I thought that you might be pointing to weapon specialisation as a system for giving fighters a bonus to hit and damage.

I'm having trouble working out what point you're trying to convey. I'm familiar with the system of weapon proficiencies and weapon specialisation in AD&D. I suspect that most people posting in this thread are too.

My post, to which you made your first reply, was in response to a suggestion that STR, like CON, should have a distinctive "fighters only" progression. I suggested that giving a class bonus to hit and damage would be a mechanically smoother alternative. I don't see how pointing to the weapon proficiency rules is relevant to the issue.

 

[Melba Toast]

Percentile strength never made sense to me. What can't a stronger guy just have strength 19, which is greater than 18?

Because AD&D ability checks were based on rolling lower than your ability score. Latter-day D&D players can't seem to grasp this concept for some reason. If you have the minimum 3 Str, you might suck, but you still have a 15% chance of success (on a 1, 2, or 3). If you have a 18 Str, you might be a badass, but you still have a 10% chance of failure (on a 19 or 20). It was really a very elegant system (and I think better and faster than D20 DC checks). If you start allowing characters to have higher than 18 in an ability score, it starts to break the system.

To be clear, I'm not defending percentile strength. I don't actually like it, and I think it could be gotten rid of. Percentile strength was only ever intended for the Fighter class to help balance the class against the other warrior classes. It got abused over the years. A better rule would just be to give all Fighters a bonus to their damage adjustment.

As regards the OP, I think the reason there is no AD&D 2E OSR is because its a fairly strong system as originally published. Its well organised and well written, and well balanced in its way. It only starts to break when you layer on all the splat books and optional rules.

 

[GMMichael]

Because AD&D ability checks were based on rolling lower than your ability score. Latter-day D&D players can't seem to grasp this concept for some reason. If you have the minimum 3 Str, you might suck, but you still have a 15% chance of success (on a 1, 2, or 3). If you have a 18 Str, you might be a badass, but you still have a 10% chance of failure (on a 19 or 20). It was really a very elegant system (and I think better and faster than D20 DC checks). . .

As regards the OP, I think the reason there is no AD&D 2E OSR is because its a fairly strong system as originally published. Its well organised and well written, and well balanced in its way. It only starts to break when you layer on all the splat books and optional rules.

The reason I couldn't grasp the concept is because I haven't used the concept in over 20 years. But that makes sense. I wouldn't call it elegant, though. I'd rather use a Fighter Strength Die - if you roll a 19 or 20 on your strength check, a Fighter gets to roll another die to still eke out a chance of success. Table removed: elegance restored.

From the "splat" books I've seen from AD&D2, even those weren't game breakers. There was lots of fluff, lots of GM aid, and the class-expansion books offered more ways to customize your class within the existing rules. Here's a good reason for an AD&D2 OSR: your original books fell apart from use.

 

[vivsavage]

Just an update for those interested. I've decided to create a Frankenstein game of sorts… meaning I'm melding some different game ideas into a cohesive whole. Called 'Black Dragon,' the game uses 2e AD&D as its basis but uses a career/lifepath system similar to Warhammer FRP. You begin play with a background (where & how you were raised), a profession (your mundane career, such as blacksmith or farmer), and an adventuring class. Each gives you different skills, possessions, and contacts. Your adventuring class changes every 3 levels (or so). The classes are inspired by the many kits from various 2e splat books.

 

[NotZenon]

exceptional strength is one thing i actually really liked about the earlier editions, and mostly just because, to me it made sense to me.

as someone who formerly competed in the "sport" of "power-lifting" (not very successfully i might add). The difference in strength between truly strong people and "just some strong guy" almost seem exponential.

Your average guy who doesn't work out, and walks in off the street, will usually struggle to deadlift their own body weight (150-200lbs) if they can at all. Another guy who is considered "the strongest guy i know" by all his friends (maybe worked a tough physical labour job for years) might walk into a gym and deadlift double his bodyweight (MAYBE) say 300-350lbs (and this honestly is extremely rare for someone who doesn't train). On the other hand, the world record for a drug tested deadlift is over 1000lbs. In the tire deadlift (slightly easier than a regular deadlift for reasons i don't want to explain here) the record is approaching 1200lbs.

The point i'm making is that the people at the top end of the strength scale really are in another class. More than 1 in 216 kind of strength (the odds of rolling 18 on 3d6 i believe). Infact probably more than 1 in 21600 kind of strength (odds of rolling 18/00). But the characters are hero's so i'm willing to give them a 1 in 21600 chance of being one of the strongest people to ever live. On the other hand someone who has a "regular" 18 strength is probably the strongest guy you know, but there are probably 10 or 20 people in a small town just as strong as him.

*On the other hand as a game play mechanic, it doesn't make any sense at all to reward the people who already have the best rolls.*

But I guess all i am saying is I get where Mr. Gygax was coming from. i wonder though why he didn't do a similar mechanic with the other stats. I mean smart people are a dime a dozen, even genius's we've all probably met a few in our life, but true genius is another story.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Just an update for those interested. I've decided to create a Frankenstein game of sorts… meaning I'm melding some different game ideas into a cohesive whole. Called 'Black Dragon,' the game uses 2e AD&D as its basis but uses a career/lifepath system similar to Warhammer FRP. You begin play with a background (where & how you were raised), a profession (your mundane career, such as blacksmith or farmer), and an adventuring class. Each gives you different skills, possessions, and contacts. Your adventuring class changes every 3 levels (or so). The classes are inspired by the many kits from various 2e splat books.

Now that [MENTION=85907]NotZenon[/MENTION] has pulled this thread from oblivion, care to give us a status update? So, for under the christmas tree and all that.