What's a Caster Without Spells To Do?

[TwoSix]

I've had someone try the 15MWD on me once and only once. The group probed the prison camp's defenses and retreated. When they returned the next day they found the camp empty except for all the prisoners who were executed and arranged like mannequins. As the PCs approached each one they found that they had signs that said things like "Why didn't you save us." A few even had things like magic mouth so the corpses could berate the PCs. The PCs were persona non grata after that for a LONG time.

That's why it depends on playstyle, but not the DM's. My players would have given approximately 0 f... finches, and then checked the prison camp for leftover treasure.

 

[Jacob Marley]

That's why it depends on playstyle, but not the DM's. My players would have given approximately 0 f... finches, and then checked the prison camp for leftover treasure.

It depends on the interactions of ALL players at the table (including the DM), the incentive structure provided by the DM and the system, and how individual players value their various choices. Change any one actor from the table and you will invariably change the outcome. In some cases the chage will be minor while in other cases substantial. Predicitng what that outcome will be, however, is quite tricky.

 

[Hussar]

Standard short range

Thus my previous comments about the DM enabling your group and having less that a strong grasp on tactics. I mean, short range on a thrown rock is 10, maybe 20 feet. You could throw it 50 feet max. Yet, for some bizarre reason, the harpies closed this close to charm you when they could do it from 300 feet away.

See, DannyA, it's stories like your Harpy story that make me incredulous.

Do you realize the odds against a party of four making three separate will saves each? And everyone made all saving throws? Now, flip that around and the harpies had to fail two or three reflex saves each, when they have a +7 Ref save? Entangle's got a DC of what, 15 at the most? Better than 50% chance of success, and they had to fail three times each. 8 or 9 saving throws and not a single roll above a 10. Whereas your party had about a 50% chance of failure, and had to roll three times each, without a single person failing.

So, to reiterate for a second. The DM had the harpies close to within tens of feet, when they had an effective range of hundreds of feet, consequently failed 8 or 9 straight saving throws with about a 50% save chance, your group made 12 straight saving throws, no one failed, all with probably less (and possibly significantly less) than 50% chance of success.

And you wonder why I express some level of disbelief here?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Such conclusions you jump to, Hussar, and based on some faulty assumptions.

1) Entangle's range is 400' + 40' per level vs the Harpies' Captivating song has a range of 300': they got caught in the Entangle, then the party- except for the bowman & the druid- immediately closed on them.

2) Yes, the Harpies improbably failed their Ref saves. However, after those initial failures, they don't get more Ref saves, they have to make D20 Str or Escape Artist saves. Harpies are neither strong nor do they have ranks in Escape Artist, plus, since they were entangled, they also had a -4 Dex penalty.

3) Yes, the party improbably made their saves against the Harpies' Caprivating Song. OTOH, with equal improbability, the party repeatedly failed to hit creatures with ACs somewhere around 10, and when we did hit, did sub-average damage. With merely average hits & damage, the bowman should have finished off one harpy and nearly killed a second one by himself...before the expiration of the first Entangle spell. Flip half of the party saves and attack rolls, and a couple of party members get captivated and approach the Harpies*, but the Harpies are dead by the middle of the second Entangle spell.

There were lots of improbabilities, but they occurred on both sides of the conflict. The nature of the ones on the harpies' side of the equation made the DM pissed off. We, OTOH, burned 3 spells, 20 arrows and 20 sling stones in a single encounter. That's one spell and 6.67 arrows and sling bullets per harpy, in addition to an uncounted number of melee strikes and thrown rocks.

It boils down to this: dice "wierds" the in game effects.


* remember, Captivating Song doesn't make the victims fight for the Harpies, just approach them.

 

[Hussar]

"Improbable"? That's about a one in twenty-five thousand chance. 12 successful saving throws is about one in 500, and 8 or 9 failed Ref saves is also about one in 500 (give or take). The odds that BOTH are true? One in 25000.

And, even with the -4 dex penalty, they still escape on a 20. Considering they would have been entangled for about 50 rounds (2 full entangle spells, at least a 2nd level druid=40 rounds+however many for the third one), we're still talking failing to roll a single 20 on about 100 die rolls.

Look, I've never met you and you've never met me. We're complete strangers who simply hurl pixels at each other. But, when someone repeatedly states that they regularly encounter very, very statistically improbable events, without any corroborating evidence whatsoever, would you believe you? You've stated repeatedly that you went into combats lacking healing and frequently continued adventuring regardless. You've given a situation here that is pretty darn unlikely.

At what point would you apply Occam's Razor? Would you simply say that this person regularly experiences extremely unlikely events, or would you start looking for other reasons?

Hey, I do realize that the improbable does happen. Fair enough. But, when the improbable happens regularly? There's something else going on.

 

[Hussar]

I've had someone try the 15MWD on me once and only once. The group probed the prison camp's defenses and retreated. When they returned the next day they found the camp empty except for all the prisoners who were executed and arranged like mannequins. As the PCs approached each one they found that they had signs that said things like "Why didn't you save us." A few even had things like magic mouth so the corpses could berate the PCs. The PCs were persona non grata after that for a LONG time.

I forgot about this one. Just wanted to come back to it.

That must have been one HELL of a probe. I mean, to execute all the prisoners that you've taken all the trouble to capture and hold for however long means that you must feel that you will not survive a second attack. I mean,the prison camp leaders abandoned their investment because there was a small attack that was repelled with minor losses?

Or did the PC's cream half the guards and then leave? Then again, the prison leaders had enough resources to toss around spells (why exactly did they have Magic Mouth spells prepared anyway? I mean, the PC's were only gone, what, 12 hours? 14 hours? The bad guys were so sure that they would escape that they prepped pointless taunting spells?), so, they must have had some pretty deep resources.

Yeah, this sort of thing is the reason I refuse to play with some DM's. Choo choo. Get on the railroad, never, ever deviate from the DM's carefully constructed plan for how you will deal with whatever problem du jour he's concocted and make sure that you never, ever, try to get ahead of the game. No thanks. I prefer it when bad guys have realistic reactions and believable motivations.

DM's pulling out the punishment stick because we did something he or she didn't like is something I've long, long given up on enjoying.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I forgot about this one. Just wanted to come back to it.

That must have been one HELL of a probe. I mean, to execute all the prisoners that you've taken all the trouble to capture and hold for however long means that you must feel that you will not survive a second attack. I mean,the prison camp leaders abandoned their investment because there was a small attack that was repelled with minor losses?

Or did the PC's cream half the guards and then leave? Then again, the prison leaders had enough resources to toss around spells (why exactly did they have Magic Mouth spells prepared anyway? I mean, the PC's were only gone, what, 12 hours? 14 hours? The bad guys were so sure that they would escape that they prepped pointless taunting spells?), so, they must have had some pretty deep resources.

Yeah, this sort of thing is the reason I refuse to play with some DM's. Choo choo. Get on the railroad, never, ever deviate from the DM's carefully constructed plan for how you will deal with whatever problem du jour he's concocted and make sure that you never, ever, try to get ahead of the game. No thanks. I prefer it when bad guys have realistic reactions and believable motivations.

DM's pulling out the punishment stick because we did something he or she didn't like is something I've long, long given up on enjoying.

The PCs wiped out about 75% of the camp and checked pretty much every part of it EXCEPT for where the prisoners and camp leaders where. They managed to hit the barracks, the armory, most of the look out points and the mess hall. At which point the mages decided that since they were running low on spells that it would be best to retreat back to the woods and rest. Their logic was that anyone left alive in the camp would flee after seeing what they did and that the prisoners would be fine for one more night despite a few "Are you sure?"'s. The few baddies in the camp did flee; after killing the prisoners since they didn't have the ability to guard/move them anymore. The camp leader was the one that made the signs. He was a bit crazy.

 

[Hussar]

So, if they wiped out 75% of the camp, how is that a 15 minute adventuring day? They completed 75% of the scenario - the exact opposite of what people refer to when they talk about 15 MAD. Sure, poor decision making to fall back when it obviously wasn't needed, but, not 15 MAD.

15 MAD would be completing about 10% of the scenario and then withdrawing to rebuild spells. That's the problem with 15 MAD - it makes for very, very poor pacing.

Now, a question. In your opinion, had they pushed on and tried for that other 25%, what would have been the result? Could they have done it? Or, rather, did they have decent odds of completing things and withdrew or were they really flat empty and that last 25% probably would have had a high chance of PC death?

 

[Grogg of the North]

I don't have the notes anymore, but I do remember that I had done my best to try and craft the scenario so that the party could have accomplished the goal without fighting at all.

 

[Bluenose]

That's why it depends on playstyle, but not the DM's. My players would have given approximately 0 f... finches, and then checked the prison camp for leftover treasure.

I'm quite sure my players would have found it amusing to go after the people who did this, keep on hitting their camp and wiping out some guards, and forcing them to move on. For months. And just said about it to anyone who wanted to know why they didn't rescue the prisoners. "Hey, we hit the camp but they killed all the prisoners before we could deal with all the guards. And I'm afraid the ringleaders got away too. Do you want us to go after them?" Which isn't even a lie.