What's a resonable price-point for entry into the RPG hobby?

[Morrus]

Indeed. My strong preference these days is for a single core rulebook. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if your game is so complex that you can't fit it into a single 300ish page book, then your game is too complex.

I don't think a Monster Manual constitutes added complexity - it's a big long list of "things". It's not a book full of rules to learn, it's just a reference resource.

 

[trappedslider]

Indeed. My strong preference these days is for a single core rulebook. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that if your game is so complex that you can't fit it into a single 300ish page book, then your game is too complex. However that is, very much, just an opinion - I can readily understand why YMMV.

How do you feel about Gurps? Granted they have a fast start pdf thats about 30 or so pages for free...but the actual basic set depending on who you ask is either two separate books or one book divided into two parts due to weight issues lol

 

[delericho]

Nitpick of your nitpick! OD&D did use a three book model. Granted, it wasn''t the same three books as AD&D, and all three books were included in one box, but still. Book 1: Men & Magic, Book 2: Monsters & Treasure, Book 3: Underworld & Wilderness Adventures.

If I said they were booklets, would that count as a nitpick of a nitpick of a nitpick?

 

[delericho]

Well, consider the Monster Manual...

I don't think a Monster Manual constitutes added complexity - it's a big long list of "things". It's not a book full of rules to learn, it's just a reference resource.

While the Monster Manual by itself doesn't represent additional complexity, my contention is that it should be possible to compress the rules to a point where a good 70-80 pages of the book can be given over to monsters and thus give a decent selection. (I'm assuming a stat-block similar in footprint to the 4e one, which for most monsters is pretty good, IMO.)

How do you feel about Gurps?

Sorry - I have no experience with GURPS at all. (Well... okay, I do have a copy of "GURPS Discworld" on my shelf, but I've never actually read it, never mind played it.)

 

[ShadowDenizen]

But, pointing someone to D&D, with its hundreds of pages, three core books, and tons of rules, seems to be the equivalent to recommending a newbie pay the $60 MSRP for Twilight Imperium and play with his group who have only ever played Monopoly. And expecting them to like it.

Query: do people think the OSR games such as Castles and Crusades/Osric, etc, (my group is currently using Basic fantasy, which is free online, or you can get from Amazon for under $5 for the print version) are a "gateway/ training ground" to games of more complexity (like Pathfinder)?

Or do people who play OSR-style games tend to stick with them exclusively? (And if so, is it a preference thing, a price thing, a combination of both or something else? My guess is the former, but you never know...)

I know that DDN hasn't been "offically" advertised yet (aside from the B&N posting that was removed), but do we have price-points for the DDN Core books yet?

 

[Razjah]

I haven't seen anything official, but I would think they'd be about $35 per hardcover, similar to their 4e pricing. Maybe less if the books are shorter. But I have no confidence in the PHB being below $30.

 

[billd91]

I don't think a Monster Manual constitutes added complexity - it's a big long list of "things". It's not a book full of rules to learn, it's just a reference resource.

Depends on what you consider a list of things and what you consider a rule. The Monster Manuals for 3e and Bestiaries for PF include quite a bit of material not in either the PH or DMG or Core Rulebook including the rules for how a lot of special attacks and qualities work. Are those really just lists of "things"? Or are they rules? I'd say they're rules.

In any event, they most definitely constitute added complexity.

 

[delericho]

Query: do people think the OSR games such as Castles and Crusades/Osric, etc, (my group is currently using Basic fantasy, which is free online, or you can get from Amazon for under $5 for the print version) are a "gateway/ training ground" to games of more complexity (like Pathfinder)?

No, I don't think so. My expectation is that, with very few exceptions, people who play OSR games are established gamers who play those games because they prefer those games; they're aware of Pathfinder, but have decided against it.

The gateway games at the moment are almost certainly Pathfinder itself, the current Star Wars, and maybe Dragon Age. Once D&D 5e is released, it will no doubt join that list; 4e may well be on it already.

I know that DDN hasn't been "offically" advertised yet (aside from the B&N posting that was removed), but do we have price-points for the DDN Core books yet?

The only price points we have were from the B&N listings, which were $20 for the Starter Set and $50 for the PHB. They may or may not be accurate.

 

[Henry]

It's worth noting that none of us are entering the hobby, and we're only hypothesizing in what a theoretical newbie would be willing to pay.

And that the amount the people claim they're willing to pay when asked is almost always significantly less than the amount they'll actually pay when push comes to shove.

I'd actually like to expand on these two points to give my take on it: I don't really count the "freebie" cost of "invite a friend to play" as "cost of entry" -- you can invite a friend to play at your golf club, and pay his fees for him too every time he comes along, but without you, sight unseen, his cost of entry is more like Cost of Basic Clubs & balls + cost of club or organization fees, which are somewhat prohibitive; it's why most people who enjoy golf as a hobby are middle-class or higher, and plan budget accordingly.

I believe when discussing "reasonable cost of entry" we need to discuss it from the standpoint of the cost of a medium, much like the various box sets for the early 80's, which not only had attractive enough production values and enticing enough ad copy but was low cost enough for people to be pulled into it by initial purchase alone. Back in the day, that cost was $12.00, or about $30 or so adjusted for inflation. Any cost you can get into it for less than this is a serious bargain, anything a lot more than this would be exorbitant to me.

To this end, games like savage worlds have an excellent cost of entry: about 10 bucks for the book, and another 10 bucks for the dice, and you get a beautiful full-color book, well-explained rules full of play examples, and plenty of art value to spark imagination. It's too bad Fiasco doesn't have a distro deal with various book chains, because with a little bit of extra art, it's rule set is similarly evocative and well-explained, and without a bunch of odd dice to buy as extras -- just buy a couple of bags of regular dice at a Dollar Store, and you're set.

I agree that with the RPG model, word of mouth is essential to keeping the hobby alive, but to be a true growth medium, it has to be able to still appeal to people who find it on their own and find something interesting enough in it to give it a try.

 

[2die10games]

The price of dice...