What's changed?

[shamsael]

It's really hard to imagine they would have nerfed Melee Training if not for Essentials.

I disagree. Melee Training, which anyone can take, was already strictly better than Intelligent Blademaster, a Blademaster only feat.

Intelligent Blademaster was unaffected by the change, so Swordmages get their basic attack advantage back.

 

[corwyn77]

I disagree. Melee Training, which anyone can take, was already strictly better than Intelligent Blademaster, a Blademaster only feat.

MT isn't better than IB, it just generalizes it to the other 4 stats. That's a good thing. It allows other, non-strength weapon users to get out of the craptastic MBA ghetto.

Intelligent Blademaster was unaffected by the change, so Swordmages get their basic attack advantage back.

And why exactly should they have MBA advantage vs. any weapon user, especially the Battlemind, another defender?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Because swordmages kinda suck and especially the Assault SM is useless without a good MBA.

I'll agree on the fightbrain though, he could really use one too. Still, he's not as gimp as an assault mage. Heck, we have an optimized assault mage in our group, it is still pathetic from a mechanical standpoint.

 

[Destil]

And why exactly should they have MBA advantage vs. any weapon user, especially the Battlemind, another defender?

Because they haven't worked out all the bugs yet. Intelegent Blademaster was necessary when the swordmage came out, but by PHB3 they had a generalized solution so they didn't need to include it for the battlemind.

And then essentials errata went and broke it and they haven't fixed yet. Hopefully, on the 'yet' part.

 

[drothgery]

MT isn't better than IB, it just generalizes it to the other 4 stats. That's a good thing. It allows other, non-strength weapon users to get out of the craptastic MBA ghetto.

IB is strictly better for a swordmage, and was pre-Essentials; IB lets you use Int for ranged attacks with heavy thrown weapons (and one of the swordmage-themed magic weapons grants the heavy thrown property to any heavy or light blade), while Melee Training (Intelligence) does not.

And why exactly should they have MBA advantage vs. any weapon user, especially the Battlemind, another defender?

That's indication of a flaw in the Battlemind, not Intelligent Blademaster (though really, IB should be a swordmage class feature, not a feat). Pretty much every other melee class (and certainly all other defenders) except the Battlemind has a way to make an MBA based on its primary stat, either due to being Str-based, a class feature that effectively grants pre-Essential melee training, or having an at-will that can be used as an MBA.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Heh, as it turns out the group I might be joining only uses PHB 1 & 2 and Martial Power. That's it. Heck, I know more about 4e than they do!

Which is kinda depressing. There are so many options I'd like to use that go beyond 1 & 2 :/

Actually I wouldn't bet on you knowing more than they do... there has been a huge amount of errata to powers which you'll need to catch up on (Come and Get It for one example)

(well, you certainly may know more than they do, but don't be complacent otherwise you may be tripped up by all the minor changes)

Cheers

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Because swordmages kinda suck and especially the Assault SM is useless without a good MBA.

I'll agree on the fightbrain though, he could really use one too. Still, he's not as gimp as an assault mage. Heck, we have an optimized assault mage in our group, it is still pathetic from a mechanical standpoint.

I agree about the assault mage, I have a 30th level one, and she's pretty weak and she's even optimized. I think IB should have been a class feature, and the Aegis feature should advance per tier, to work as Double Aegis at paragon, and Total Ageis, at epic. And even then. . . Besides a tricked-out Swordburst, the rest of the SM powers are pretty meh. And all the good feats for the ASM are all, "must haves," she's basically, a teleporting "feat tax."

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree about the assault mage, I have a 30th level one, and she's pretty weak and she's even optimized. I think IB should have been a class feature, and the Aegis feature should advance per tier, to work as Double Aegis at paragon, and Total Ageis, at epic. And even then. . . Besides a tricked-out Swordburst, the rest of the SM powers are pretty meh. And all the good feats for the ASM are all, "must haves," she's basically, a teleporting "feat tax."

I think the real issue though with Aegis of Ensnarement and Aegis of Assault is that they FUNDAMENTALLY don't work well from a tactical standpoint. Aegis of Assault requires the SM to teleport adjacent, which inevitably pulls the SM out of whatever other more desirable position he was in or forces him to make a choice to use or not use the feature. This isn't ALWAYS an issue, but the marked creature can often take advantage of this. AoE is even worse, as often the enemy will be better off if the aegis is triggered and is rarely worse of. There are times you can benefit from either one, but no other defender feature has the potential to be exploited BY the enemy. Even if the aegis is made stronger this issue still exists for the swordmage.

The end result is that SMs are always pretty situational with these AoA and AoE. Couple that with the SMs weak power selection and quite limited damage output and you're really just not that great. Aegis of Defense works well and makes an adequate defender, but even then they're much more useful against a single enemy that unleashes large single-target attacks and not so much so against other types of opponent.

Swordmage is a moderately nifty concept, but TBH I don't think the archetype is well served by being placed in the defender role. At the very least they should have something like a strong secondary striking or controlling role, which seems to be absent. Although I can see the allure of having an arcane defender I just don't think it worked out well as designed.

 

[Istar]

One can thank the gods that the endless amount of errata that followed each handbook and the errata to the errata and in some case errata to errated errate, has ended.

Havent seen anything for months.

What our group would like, and there are 7 of us who dont mind spending money on reliabel books.

Is a complete revised - and fully edited - editions of all the basic books from PHB 1 to 3, Av 1 and 2, Martial P 1 and 2, all of those core books, and include the errata for the basic game that was included in essentials.
And the essentials feats that relate to the non-essential game.

Publish them.

And then people like the op who want to play the games by the full edited rules, can simply by the revised manual.

Is this really too hard to ask, and would in fact generate them a substantial amount of business.

Am I the only ones who see's this ??

 

[Dannager]

One can thank the gods that the endless amount of errata that followed each handbook and the errata to the errata and in some case errata to errated errate, has ended.

Havent seen anything for months.

What our group would like, and there are 7 of us who dont mind spending money on reliabel books.

Is a complete revised - and fully edited - editions of all the basic books from PHB 1 to 3, Av 1 and 2, Martial P 1 and 2, all of those core books, and include the errata for the basic game that was included in essentials.
And the essentials feats that relate to the non-essential game.

Publish them.

And then people like the op who want to play the games by the full edited rules, can simply by the revised manual.

Is this really too hard to ask, and would in fact generate them a substantial amount of business.

Am I the only ones who see's this ??

Or you could subscribe to DDI for way less than that would cost and get your wish right now.

Your call.