What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

[Mark]

ibtl

 

[Merkuri]

For all I know, I'm serving Italian food, and he doesn't like garlic or tomatoes. There is not enough information to go on whether the food was undercooked, overcooked, or simply not to his taste...

This reminds me of the time when I went out to a restaurant for a friend's birthday party. There were some people I knew and some people I didn't know. The guy sitting across from me I didn't know, and I happened to order the same thing as him. When we got our meals mine looked delicious and I was eagerly waiting to dig in. He looked at his plate and, without touching it, disgustedly told the waitress to take it back.

The waitress asked him what was wrong with it and he refused to answer, as if the question insulted him. I think at one point he said that it was "false advertising" or that the menu entry didn't represent the actual meal. He did not get more specific than that.

He didn't end up eating anything that night, and I think he complained (in similarly vague terms) about the cup of coffee he had for "dessert". He wouldn't even tell us what was wrong with the food. He would just shudder and repeat the statement about how he doesn't like things being misrepresented.

Sure, the restaurant knew this guy didn't like the food. However, they had no idea what about the food was wrong. I sure as heck didn't know what was wrong with his food. Mine was delicious!

The criticism he gave (that it was "misrepresented") wasn't constructive because it was very vague. When giving criticism about a game system (or anything, really) if your goal is to be helpful the more specific you get the better.

This is an extreme example of nonconstructive criticism, but I think it goes to show that not all criticism is helpful.

 

[Wayside]

On the other hand, getting upset because people with opinions contrary to yours have the chance to express there opinion is completely non-constructive. And further, trying to cover up or silence those opinions is is worse than "nothing constructive", it is deconstructive.

First, your desire to reframe the issue in terms of free speech is misguided. On ENWorld speech is a privilege, not a right, and that privilege is routinely and rightfully revoked for a variety of reasons--which you already know, since you yourself have had your posting privileges suspended on multiple occasions in the past.

Second, every comment I've ever made about the edition wars, without exception, has been on the rhetorical strategies used by participants. So making assumptions about my views and whether they are contrary to the views I am responding to is careless on your part. It isn't people's views I'm responding to but how they articulate those views.

Finally, and in summary: as someone who has played 3e and 4e exactly twice each and who could not care less which game you've built your entire identity around, I would very much like partisans of all editions to be specific in their criticisms, rather than to just repeat their side's talking points, lean on weasel words like "videogamey," and in general cultivate an air of extreme ressentiment.

That's all I have to say about it. You can have the last word.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've been here since the early days of 3e. I've never, EVER, heard of an in-store conversion guide. I was shopping at three different stores at the time, and I never, ever saw such an in-store conversion guide. I am not saying you didn't get one. However, I am saying that either 1) your store printed them for their customers and were not actually "sent" them from WOTC, or 2) you encountered a relatively rare in-store conversion guide that many people never saw or heard about.

Nope- its an actual WotC product, nice & slick, and as I just found out today, was also available as a pdf. Since I got mine at different, non-affiiliated stores and they had identical production values, i highly doubt that the stores themselves printed them.

Conversion Manual - RPGnet d20 RPG Game Index

How rare they were, though, I can't say. Again, I saw them in stores all over the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex...but then again, I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, which is in the top 10 population centers in the USA.

I think your assumption that no stores knew about the online conversion articles is false. Your store didn't know - but then your store also had an apparently rare or printed conversion guide for 2e to 3e, so your store seems to be rare fairly consistently.

I shop in 3 main gaming stores- 2 solo stores and a large, local chain- as well as a couple of national chain bookstores. Nobody knew about a conversion guide.

You are speaking for who else exactly here?

For myself, obviously, and my technophile buddies- as mentioned, 2 of whom are in the (computer) gaming industry, and, it would seem, those others who have posted in this thread with the same experience.

Its not like a host of 4Ed non-adopters haven't posted about the lack of a conversion guide before- its a fairly common complaint in the Edition Wars threads.

Again, I don't think you can say with confidence that the extraordinarily small sample group of your players can speak for the world on this topic. I think most people knew to go to the WOTC website for additional information because that fact is mentioned in the 4e books (all three "core" books say it), and anyone who did could have seen the set of conversion articles.

4e REQUIRES someone have some basic internet access, in order for you to get some essential information such as errata. For that matter, so did 3e, and 3e also mentioned their website in the core books. I think at this point, everyone knows that someone in their group should go to the WOTC every once in a while to see if there are any important things there for the game.

And heck, you know how to use Google. I found that conversion article ranked high when searching for any of a half dozen variations on the topic. Anyone looking for the WOTC conversion articles just had to Google the topic to find it. You didn't even need to go to the WOTC website directly to find them.

Personally, I rarely go for anyone's web-enhancements unless its required for my job.

Even if I had noticed a blurb about web-enhancements for D&D 4Ed, I probably wouldn't have gone looking for it. And since my past experience with WotC included a nice, friendly conversion guide pamphlet and there wasn't one when I got my 4Ed stuff, nor at any of the several stores I shopped, my conclusion was that no such thing existed.

But that's me.

Still, few things here:

First, as several have pointed out here and elsewhere, when interviewed, certain 4Ed designers actively discouraged persons from attempting to convert- given this, why would one then go looking for a 4Ed conversion guide?

Second, as someone has pointed out in this thread, when WotC was directly contacted regarding a conversion guide, they were NOT directed to it. Whether this was a lack of WotC telling their own employees these things existed or whether it was the result of a policy that reflected the aforementioned hostility towards the conversion process I can't say. But if the publishing company itself doesn't acknowledge such a thing exists when asked directly about it, why in the world would I continue looking for it? That's insane.

Last- and this may amaze you- there are certain people on this very board whose internet access is limited to say the least. We have military who may not be permitted to download certain things or access certain sites, we even have people who visit here who are still on dial-up because that's the best thing available...so web-enhancements are essentially valueless for a variety of persons who would be looking for some of these things.

 

[mudbunny]

First, as several have pointed out here and elsewhere, when interviewed, certain 4Ed designers actively discouraged persons from attempting to convert- given this, why would one then go looking for a 4Ed conversion guide?

When they were asked, I recall most of them saying that, due to differences between the editions, a direct conversion guide wasn't going to be done. However, that you could often get a very close approximation by determining the spirit of the character, and then using that as a guide to build the 4E character.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When they were asked, I recall most of them saying that, due to differences between the editions, a direct conversion guide wasn't going to be done.

That's my recollection as well...and a good reason not to go looking for a 4Ed conversion book.

However, that you could often get a very close approximation by determining the spirit of the character, and then using that as a guide to build the 4E character.

I can convert D&D characters into HERO- I've done so. I can go the other way as well.

That's not the same as there being a D&D => HERO or HERO => D&D conversion guide being a real product.

My skill with doing such conversions also doesn't mean there isn't a desire for there to be such conversion guides, by me or by less system-savvy gamers.

 

[Banshee16]

Hi, all.

Before I begin, I'd like to stress that I do not want to fan any edition wars flames.

One of my friends lured me into a panel for my university's English Grad Student Conference (I'm at Virginia Tech). The panel is on gaming, and my particular talk is on the rhetoric surrounding the Edition Wars, specifically addressing what is at stake for the participants. I'm mostly arguing from an ontological basis, that is, the rules determine and implicitly argue for ways of being in a game world. I'll also be talking about how the rules affect the "means of production" in terms of creative control of a shared narrative/imaginary universe.

I know these discussions don't get so heated based solely on these reasons, and that's why I'm asking you for your opinions. I'd like to use fodder from this thread to let the community represent itself rather than having me talk for you.

So...

...for you, what's really at stake?

(The next post is a copy of the abstract.)

That's a way complex question..

For some, it's ego. As with any hobby or pass time, some people just need to feel that they are "right". And they want everyone else to admit it.

There's also simple things like personal preference. Different editions *do* play very differently.....2nd Ed. was different than 1st, which was different from 3rd, which was different from 4th. If someone likes one style of play, they probably want to keep playing that way as long as possible. For those preferring older editions, this leaves them with the fear of being "left in the dust" and no longer being able to find players for their favourite edition.

For others, I think they just enjoy debate/arguing.

I think personal investment has a big part as well. I'm willing to bet that those with larger financial or time commitments in a particular edition are more resistant to change, and might have an interest in change being delayed.

As to comments elsewhere in the thread about a 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed. conversion guide, I know it existed, as I have one sitting in my gaming bag right now. It was available for free at my FLGS. I didn't see anything comparable for 3rd to 4th Ed....but I also wasn't looking.

Banshee

 

[Mistwell]

Reasons why it's WOTCs fault Dannycatraz didn't know about the conversion guide

Here is the order of events in this thread, and I think it is constructive to examine it for the broader topic of this thread:

1) People saying there was no conversion guide
2) People pointing out there was one
3) People claiming it came a long time after 4e came out
4) People point out it came out actually a week after the PHB
5) People claiming they were not aware of it and therefore it's WOTC they didn't know.

See how this is going? The initial claim was false. But instead of just admitting it was in error when the information is provided, instead a series of reasons to still blame WOTC were presented. And when the second one was proven false, a third set of reasons were hauled out. Each time, instead of admitting to an error, no acknowledgment of an error is ever made, and only another reason to be upset.

And I am not saying it's just you, or just 3e fans. 4e fans do it also. I probably do it myself. This continual unwillingness to ever resolve a dispute. To ever grant someone that they might be right. To always make ones claims a moving target.

Which goes to prove, in my mind at least, that there is nothing at all at stake in the edition wars. Nobody can ever really be convinced of anything. If shown without question their claim was false, they will still find a way to shift their claim to something that cannot be proven false. Because, it's not about coming to the resolution of a debate.It's about engaging in the edition war itself.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here is the order of events in this thread, and I think it is constructive to examine it for the broader topic of this thread:

1) People saying there was no conversion guide
2) People pointing out there was one
3) People claiming it came a long time after 4e came out
4) People point out it came out actually a week after the PHB
5) People claiming they were not aware of it and therefore it's WOTC they didn't know.

I have no problem admitting my error that one existed since you pointed it out...just like you haven't squawked about the 3Ed conversion guide's existence since I posted the RPGnet link describing it.

However, I made no claims about when the 4Ed one came out, just that since it was online only, it was less likely to be found than the 3Ed version that sat on shelves next to the books or next to the cash registers.

You also (dis)missed some of the crucial points like:

1.5) People asking WotC designers about one pre-release, WotC designers saying in response that there was none, and that you should either start fresh or "re-imagine" their PCs and approximate them. They did not direct anyone to the online conversion guide. This is a fact- the video clip has been posted in previous "edition wars" threads.

4.5) People claiming they ASKED WotC for one directly and more than one time through WotC's own customer service department and were not directed to one.

There can be no doubt that those ARE WotC's fault.

Those who heard 1.5 would have no reason to look for one (among those would be me). Those who got the treatment claimed in 4.5 looked for one and were turned away.

That's WotC's own publicity engines failing their customers.

 

[Lanefan]

There are a number of major points to providing constructive feedback that are violated in most internet conversations.

1) To be constructive, feedback must be targeted to someone who might be able to use it to improve the material.

2) The focus of the feedback needs to be on the work, and what could be done to improve it, not on the emotions of the critic. This is a big one - if the primary point of the statement is to express your own displeasure, then you're probably missing the mark. A person giving constructive feedback ought to think of themselves as part of the team creating the material - if you're in the frame of mind that there's "Them" (the designers) and "Us" the gamers who hate the design, then you're also going to miss the mark.

This all makes the very big and quite possibly wrong assumption that if-when I criticize an edition I'm talking to the designers.

I'm talking to the consumers.

The design process is long since finished. It's too late to improve the (official, published) material, so there's no point in targeting "someone who might be able to ... improve the material" with what I say. But it's never too late to at least throw an opinion out there; an example might be this game has a lot of 'x' in it and thus here's a warning to stay away if you don't like 'x'.

Now if we're talking about games that aren't out yet e.g. 5e, then what you say is exactly right: but we're not criticizing at that point, we're suggesting.

Lan-"Canada. Hockey. Gold."-efan