What's the big deal with "feat taxes?"

[UngeheuerLich]

hmmh.... missing with dailies or encounters is no fun... there the devs are really right...

when you just do damage or doe the same thing over and over again, you don´t care if you hit now or next time, as a hit does kill... dailies or encounters that are used up when you miss... no fun at all...

this is why i like dailies and encounters with effects or things like power attack... you may hit or not, but if you chose to use a limited resource, it pays off, no matter if you hit or not...

so i guess, it all boils not down to do i hit 15% more often but to "should limited resources generally have a miss effect"

(damage only powers doing half damage, effects should happen on a hit or a miss, at least)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I find that players complaining when they miss when they roll a 5 or under annoying. Going "Crap, I rolled a 5" is fine but when you expect to hit by rolling a 5? That's not the game's fault, that's an entitled player whine.

my fav moment was when the avenger rolled a 1 and a 2, then rerolled and got a 2 and a 3... and missed, then the warden on the nexr intiative rolled a nat 20 and crit and the avenger slamed his dice and went on to a rant for like 5 mins about how it was not fair he had a +x to hit and should do X damage and how can a non optimized loser do more damage...

hmmh.... missing with dailies or encounters is no fun... there the devs are really right...

when you just do damage or doe the same thing over and over again, you don´t care if you hit now or next time, as a hit does kill... dailies or encounters that are used up when you miss... no fun at all...

this is why i like dailies and encounters with effects or things like power attack... you may hit or not, but if you chose to use a limited resource, it pays off, no matter if you hit or not...

so i guess, it all boils not down to do i hit 15% more often but to "should limited resources generally have a miss effect"

(damage only powers doing half damage, effects should happen on a hit or a miss, at least)

in my normal groups missing with encounters hurts alot... dailys normaly have effects or miss stuff so that isn't as big...but especialy level 1 or 2 when you only have 1 wncounter that miss hurts...

by level 7 when you have 3 (4 with themes) it isn't as bad... and slayers and the like that never miss encounters are a big boon too...

I do think hitting is important but not the only thing that matters,,,


let me use my online game table game as an example...we started at level 3, and at level 4 we realized we had no one trained in perception, and no rit casters... so 2 players (out of 4) had there feat picked for them... and since we had some problems with orcs and no one spoke giant... the barbarian took linguastics...

could they all have been beter if they picked up expertise...yes, but getting giant (and dwarven) added to the party, and adding +5 to the already 2nd bst perception, and getting a rit caster mattered more...

we have a barbarian, a warlock, a warlord, and a warden...it was a major step up right before the game ended (we did make it to 5th but not 6th)

 

[C4]

so multi attacks and AOEs will throw those numbers off...but i think we all agree that the math never hits reality...

Clearly, math should have taken Expertise then.

Or maybe you realize, that the hybrid talent tax serves a purpose...

Hybrids aren't my thing, so I can't comment on whether Hybrid Talent is a tax or not. If it is a tax as you say, then there is a better way to do hybriding.

I also believe, that if you had to pay a feat to add your half level to attack and defenses by RAW, there were feats that compared to that... Maybe feats were there to dfferentiate a fighting type character from a non fighting character...

But now, giving out expertize for free IS ignoring people who don´t want an extra +1 to hit at level 1... everyone should have the option to exchange that benefit for a different one, and suddenly you have just given everyone a free feat...

Ding ding ding we have a winner... when we make them feats we let everyone play how they want... I take or dont take baised on my character want and or need...and so does everyone else.

So you two want freedom of choice, excellent! No point having stuff that doesn't fit my character concept. So you wouldn't mind if my lazylord gave up his "half-level bonus to attack rolls" feat for a few extra feat slots, since he doesn't need it and I don't want it. And while I'm at it, I'll give up all his weapon proficiencies except for the sword he uses -- I'll use those two dozen feat slots to jack his leadership abilities. Because my character concept is a master tactician putz everything else, and the game is about choice right?

Well into house rule territory, but it would be very interesting if expertise instead gave you a minimum base attack bonus - which would primarily make up for low stats, multiclassing oddness, and lack of enhancement bonus.

That might be fun, but I suspect CharOp would have a field day with it. Suddenly the best builds would let their attack bonuses go to hell, fix it with Expertise and then use all the feats they would have spent on attack boosters to boost damage.

I find that players complaining when they miss when they roll a 5 or under annoying. Going "Crap, I rolled a 5" is fine but when you expect to hit by rolling a 5? That's not the game's fault, that's an entitled player whine.

So far as I know, you're the only one in this thread talking about anyone wanting to hit on a 5.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So you two want freedom of choice, excellent! No point having stuff that doesn't fit my character concept. So you wouldn't mind if my lazylord gave up his "half-level bonus to attack rolls" feat for a few extra feat slots, since he doesn't need it and I don't want it. And while I'm at it, I'll give up all his weapon proficiencies except for the sword he uses -- I'll use those two dozen feat slots to jack his leadership abilities. Because my character concept is a master tactician putz everything else, and the game is about choice righ

ok I am not sure if this is a joke or not...and I really am sick to death of hearing about this lazy warlord becuse my warlord hits AND gives attacks...thanks to vengence is mine, and coordanate assualt, and others...


but ok, so you think that becuse I don't give a feat to someone who doesn;t need or even want it that is the same as what you propose???

Lets try this again (and I have asked this for over a year now)... If some people want the expertise bonus but do not feel they are needed, and some NEED expertise or they think there character is un playable, and still others want the option of taking or not taking the feat... how do you make people happy without upsetting others??

answer: U can not...the feats are the best (but not perfect) solution becuse it lets everyone decide on there own, especialy when there are DMs giving them out for free...


[sblock=imagin]
Imagine tomorrow wotc errated away all of the feats and built in a +1 ay 5,15,and 25 to def and attack... I would have to re do all of my encounters as all my players get a powerboost, or I would have to explain why I am ignoreing the new tule...

now next time I start a game I have to eaither adapt (to some way more powerful characters) or take away...

net gain...my group asplode....

Now from my point of view it is esier to house rule extras then to take away...
[/sblock]

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lets try this again (and I have asked this for over a year now)... If some people want the expertise bonus but do not feel they are needed, and some NEED expertise or they think there character is un playable, and still others want the option of taking or not taking the feat... how do you make people happy without upsetting others??

Speaking as one who has no plans to take any of the expertise feats, let me say that if the benefits of the feats were just figured into the basic math of the game or given as free class bennies- without reducing the number of feats available as they stand now- you'd make the people complaining about the "feat tax" happy.

And I'm pretty sure that those like me wouldn't complain at all, since we'd still make the same choices about building our PCs as before.

Its not a win-win, but it sure seems to be a win-no lose.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Speaking as one who has no plans to take any of the expertise feats, let me say that if the benefits of the feats were just figured into the basic math of the game or given as free class bennies- without reducing the number of feats available as they stand now- you'd make the people complaining about the "feat tax" happy.

And I'm pretty sure that those like me wouldn't complain at all, since we'd still make the same choices about building our PCs as before.

Its not a win-win, but it sure seems to be a win-no lose.

no the lose is my group nd one like it... we have powergamers who are already above ar with the feats...who will be given 2-3 free feats that they can then take as other optimal feats increaseing there already huge power...

Let me give you the tony/matt example... on avrage matt hits on a 3-5 depending ont eh monster... Tony hits on a 13-15... matt will get feats that will increase his damage, tony gets a +1 to nads and to hit...

the loose is that as is the game is too easy to have overpowered opt characters...but there is a limit (thank god for no pun pun) what I don't want is for that limit to increase....


I will tell you from what I have seen, here is how this plays out... Tony does not notice the +1/2/3 to hit... matt brags about how his new feat is the best and why... Matt gets more face time and tony just wants to punch matt in said face... end ressult powergamer got better (bad ressult)

My suggested fix (still not perfect) make expertise +1 to hit +2 at 21, and make a couple dozen new paragon paths that give good flavor AND +1 to hit...




edit: the win/win is the feat, that some games will make you take some will be optional, some will give for free...becuse again The last thing I want is to have to take away a buff from the party...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

no the lose is my group nd one like it... we have powergamers who are already above ar with the feats...who will be given 2-3 free feats that they can then take as other optimal feats increaseing there already huge power...

This is not the "lose", at worst, it is a wash for those who don't take those feats because if the math of those feats is baked in, it will probably close the gap in their efficacy.

Look at it this way:

If it is true that the Expertise feats are the best feats available, and you have some players taking them and some not taking them, you have a gap in the power of the PCs. To illustrate this, we shall say the Expertise feats are ranked 10 out of 10, and they are the only feats to get that rank.

If, however, if the Expertise feats are the best available AND the benefits of those Expertise feats is given to ALL PCs, then whatever choices the "powergamers" make with the feats they get back will, by definition, be less unbalancing than the status quo. Everyone gets the benefit of the 10 out of 10 "feats", so the next choice available to the powergamers is a 9 out of 10 feat. The power disparity decreases.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Clearly, math should have taken Expertise then.


Hybrids aren't my thing, so I can't comment on whether Hybrid Talent is a tax or not. If it is a tax as you say, then there is a better way to do hybriding.



So you two want freedom of choice, excellent! No point having stuff that doesn't fit my character concept. So you wouldn't mind if my lazylord gave up his "half-level bonus to attack rolls" feat for a few extra feat slots, since he doesn't need it and I don't want it. And while I'm at it, I'll give up all his weapon proficiencies except for the sword he uses -- I'll use those two dozen feat slots to jack his leadership abilities. Because my character concept is a master tactician putz everything else, and the game is about choice right?


That might be fun, but I suspect CharOp would have a field day with it. Suddenly the best builds would let their attack bonuses go to hell, fix it with Expertise and then use all the feats they would have spent on attack boosters to boost damage.


So far as I know, you're the only one in this thread talking about anyone wanting to hit on a 5.

Hey, you know what:

if you start becoming personal, i can become that too:

play the game you want and let others play the game they want... i am currently happy with the game as it is... i would have been happy with slight alterations. I don´t tell you how you have to play your game, so stop telling me how we play our games...

just to be clear: i never said, I would like to play with those different rules... but I said, you could play with them easily...

but as you said: allowing anyone to just unlearn things and take different things is a bad idea, as it is to give out freebies to everyone, even if someone DOES NOT NEED it. So the fairest thing is just stick with the rules and it ok...

if you are not happy with that, make up your own rules and play with them, but by all means, stop pretending, that your style is the only good way.

So no, a lazy warlord, since it seems to be the only character concept you know, may not retrain his level bonus to attack... why should anyone allow such things... it was the warlords choice to be lazy... so why should he get any freebies?

If I would give out expertise for free, however, he could very well argue, that he DOES NOT WANT THAT and rather take linguist... it would be his good right to so so...


And last but not least, there are people, who just want a character that is not so good in combat... they would be happy to not have half level bonus to everything... just look through this forum and you will see how much hate this bonus produced...
things like "mi mi mi, a high level wizard can smash open a door better than a first level athlete were not unsusal 2 years ago" (i am totally ok with that half level bonus to everything... before you claim things that are not true again...)

 

[Herschel]

Speaking as one who has no plans to take any of the expertise feats, let me say that if the benefits of the feats were just figured into the basic math of the game or given as free class bennies- without reducing the number of feats available as they stand now- you'd make the people complaining about the "feat tax" happy.

And I'm pretty sure that those like me wouldn't complain at all, since we'd still make the same choices about building our PCs as before.

Its not a win-win, but it sure seems to be a win-no lose.

But then the "all my books are wrong, you're MAKING me subscribe to DDI" etc. rants would ramp up, many times by the same people. I sometimes wonder how any game designer visiting an internet board can find any motivation to create something for such a bunch of whiny maggots.

Mod Note: Ladies and Gents, EN World's Rule #1 is, "Keep it civil." Calling people, "whiny maggots," is not civil. Being uncivil can get you removed from a thread, like it did Herschel here. I don't suggest you emulate this example. ~Umbran

 

[Ryujin]

But then the rants of "all my books are wrong, you're MAKING me subscribe to DDI" etc. rants would ramp up, many times by the same people. I sometimes wonder how any game designer visiting an internet board can find any motivation to create something for such a bunch of whiny maggots.

No more-so than when the entire list of difficulties was changed. It would take minor notes to cover level-up changes at Heroic, Paragon, and Epic.