Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[LuYangShih]

The Kobolds cannot touch the Wizard who uses those two spells. Crossbow bolts will not work, and he cannot be grappled. All that is left at that point is hunt and destroy. Assuming it is simply 400 unclassed Kobolds, they will die. The party can easily set up a secure position from which to begin culling the herd, so to speak, even for sixty other people. The Kobolds would be unable to harm the party in any way. At worst, a few of the people they are protecting will get killed.

If the party wants to get them out of the way as fast as possible, the Wizard can put both spells on one or two other party members with bows, and use up a few hundred arrows, while the others wait and guard the secure resting place they have set up. Or they can just use the renewable resources of spells from the spellcasters like the Wizard and Cleric. All in all, the only thing an encounter like this would cost the PCs is time. Whether or not you think that is suffecient to grant experience for is a matter of personal preference.

 

[Numion]

But could you give an example reason why PCs would like to subject themselves to this abuse when they have a million ways to deal with the kobolds with little / no resources? What is the reason your PCs would want to confront all the kobolds on the kobolds terms, because sure as hell they don't have to, while still reaching their adventure objective!

How'about that, green slime?

 

[green slime]

Protection from arrows lasts for 100 hp of damage. Not for ever and ever as long as you are shot at. Given d8 damage, average rolls 4.5 that is 22 bolts at your wizard's AMAZING AC of... 17-18 (bracers +4, dex +3)? given +2 with ranged weapons, that is one bolt in 4 hits, so after 88 bolts fired... how many kobolds were there? A plink here, a plink there...

So much for those two spells doing it "all". AND those spells are limited. They are a resource. And challenge ratings consume resources.

At "worst" those 60 people would like to stay alive, thank you very much. The kobolds do not travel on the surface, where you can Spot them coming in, they move in their tunnels (so ARCHERY) isn't a big help to the PCs, NOR are RANGED ATTACKS.

OR they attack in a fog, or a mist, or... and poison the well (defecate into it) slash the horses...

And they just want to hamper the PCs enough so that the PCs pack up and leave. THAT is a victory for the Kobolds.

Two PCs cannot protect 60 people short of stuffing them all in a rope trick, or similar but then you are facing other problems...

And a lot of these tactics ASSUME the PCs KNOW that they are ONLY facing kobolds. Something the kobolds are of course going to inform the PCs at the first available opportunity.

PCs will have no problem mowing down kobolds that appear to take pot shots, even when they are trying to stay in 9/10ths cover, once they are aware of the presence of kobolds. They are still limited to the number of shots they can take per round. And the kobolds will change tactics.

 

[Skinwalker]

Now how many PCs wander around with Deathwatch memorized? Let alone actually cast it outside of combat?

Eyes of Dark Aura. Got 'em. Wear 'em. Now I have yet 1 more reason to love 'em.

 

[green slime]

How'about that, green slime?

WTF do you mean by that???

I've said: You can NEGOTIATE.... That is the reward for placing many levels worth of SKILL POINTs in a skill!!!

I've said, you can teleport away, so what? You expect XP for that??? (and that consumes a large amount of resources for the day, to evacuate a large number (64) of people.

I said it would be easier to create a new fort somewhere else, at 13th level, using the magic and abilities of the PCs. But somehow, people kept on arguing that it was SO EASY to wipe out a tribe of kobolds. Of course it is. If your DM has the brains and imagination of a Dodo...

You can try to attack, and you WILL suffer. Most likely, the PCs WILL prevail, but it will probably be a phyrric victory. OR they'll realise they have to negotiate, (at worse terms...) OR they'll flee the scene.

From what we KNOW of this set-up (the "adventure objective"), the idea was to settle in the fort, to protect the villagers from an Enemy tribe. Presumably to be able to retaliate at a later date, and reclaim what was once lost. So keeping the NPCs alive is a major part of the plot. And any prolonged battle will likely draw the attention of the Enemy, which MIGHT try to ally with the kobolds.

I'm not arguing that Players have NO OTHER OPTION BUT to attack. I'm saying IF THEY aren't PERCEPTIVE as to the situation, and, as many players are apt to do, UNDERESTIMATE this foe on their (the kobold's) home turf, then they shall pay a heavy price in resources, as they would in any CR 13 encounter.

However, like MOST encounters, a clever party can think of alternative solutions to the problem at hand and come away completely scott free, AND feel good about the skill points they spent! That is a completely valid solution to ANY problemn facing the party, the versatility of the PCs!

If I can convince a CR13 Blackguard to accompany me for a while (and a 13th level Bard or Telepath is quite capable of that, and much more), instead of beating him to a pulp, It was still a CR13 Encounter!!!!

 

[Bauglir]

I am certain that I have seen an example where you can lob missiles of all sorts.

Arrows can be lobbed, just you loose a lot of accuracy. Perhaps this was a sword and fist thing?

Maybe. I'm largely referencing the core 3 books

And to presume grenade-like missiles CAN'T be thrown round a corner, or over a wall, well, that stretches the imagination a bit too far.

They CAN be thrown, just not with any accuracy is how I'd rule it. It's silly that they can hear some armour clinking and without ever looking out place a grenade within a few feet of the source.

What do you rule when a PC tries to throw something round a corner? they can't? How anal is that?

They'll have to look around the corner if they want any accuracy, and make a hide check not to be spotted doing it. PCs don't get automatic ambushes by standing round a corner any more than NPCs do.

How about kick a ball under a bed? No LoS there either.

Sure there is - the ball (and your foot) starts at floor level so it's all good. If you're talking about precise placement under the bed well that's a little trickier when you can't see what might be under there to block the ball's path, although it's offset by the small area you're working with.

Can you sweep under a bed when you don't have line of sight? You might not get all the dust, but by your reasoning, you can't even try.

Of course you can, you just won't do very well unless you look at what you're doing.

I thought that if the rules where supposed to be PERMISSIVE instead of RESTRICTIVE. That is, if it doesn't say you CAN'T and it doesn't seem unreasonable, then you CAN. Subject to DM whim.

Absolutes are a Bad Thing imo in D&D. No matter how cunning the plan, no matter how well-made the battlefield, nomatter how skillful the execution, ultimately the dice should ALWAYS roll (of course taken to its furthest extent this would lead to making balance checks to walk normally, so for practicality I'll add the qualifier 'when something is at stake')
In this case the success/failure of the kobolds' plans are at stake so the dice should roll. As there is nothing in the rules (that I know of) to cover this situation I would use listen rolls to try and determine the location of the target:

DC 5 (armored target walking) + 5 (target on the ground, listening from within warrens) + 3 (target 30ft away) + 20 (trying to pinpoint location) = DC 33

Kobolds have a +2 listen check, and many DMs don't allow automatic skill success on a natural 20 (although I do)

Next, assuming they made that listen check they'd have to make an attack roll to get that grenade somewhere near the target. Now of course, being a grenade it doesn't have to be a direct hit. Close is plenty, but since they can't really see to aim the shot close isn't all that easy. They'd have a massive penalty to their attack roll (I don't have the indirect fire rules here so I can't really come up with a good number) and the more they missed by the further the grenade would land from the target. Basically we're talking about another 20 here. (Using a 150gp bomb they'd have to get it within 5ft of the target)

So if all 400 Kobolds somehow had a 150gp bomb each (maybe they won the kobold lottery) and they all chucked them at the party from within their warrens, on average 1 would hit, dealing 2d6 damage (ref 20 for half)

So yes, while they can do that, it doesn't automatically succeed. It's not even likely to.

 

[Numion]

Protection from arrows lasts for 100 hp of damage. Not for ever and ever as long as you are shot at. Given d8 damage, average rolls 4.5 that is 22 bolts at your wizard's AMAZING AC of... 17-18 (bracers +4, dex +3)? given +2 with ranged weapons, that is one bolt in 4 hits, so after 88 bolts fired... how many kobolds were there? A plink here, a plink there...

So much for those two spells doing it "all". AND those spells are limited. They are a resource. And challenge ratings consume resources.

13th level mage with AC 17? Alrighty then... you're stacking things to the kobolds favor. At this point it seems that it's not the traps, the pet dragons, the dire weasels, the higher level bosses .. it's just the DM bent on screwing his players.

At "worst" those 60 people would like to stay alive, thank you very much. The kobolds do not travel on the surface, where you can Spot them coming in, they move in their tunnels (so ARCHERY) isn't a big help to the PCs, NOR are RANGED ATTACKS.

And they just want to hamper the PCs enough so that the PCs pack up and leave. THAT is a victory for the Kobolds.

But the PCs don't have to stay there. They can choose when to battle. And if you were totally honest DM, I'd teach the commoners to use similar tactics as the kobolds. Kobolds can't see the humans when they're standing behind a tree, or the humans dig their own tunnels (they dig faster because they're stronger) .. etc.

And a lot of these tactics ASSUME the PCs KNOW that they are ONLY facing kobolds. Something the kobolds are of course going to inform the PCs at the first available opportunity.

PCs will have no problem mowing down kobolds that appear to take pot shots, even when they are trying to stay in 9/10ths cover, once they are aware of the presence of kobolds. They are still limited to the number of shots they can take per round. And the kobolds will change tactics.

Yeah right. You're somehow assuming that more info on the enemy (ie PCs know they're against kobolds) would somehow negatively affect their performance? You assume wrong. PCs would actually device their own tactics to counter or better yet just ignore the kobolds. PCs never reach 13th level if they act like dumbasses you expect to be.

BTW, digging tunnels isn't fast. You can't do it at all in some places. As far as earth goes Vietnam was optimal.

 

[green slime]

Long ranmble on grenade attacks

But I said; You get an idea oof how far away the noise is. I NEVER said you pinpoint the location.

If I hear a noise, I can judge whether it is immediately behind me, or 30 feet away, or 200 feet away...

So, we can ascertain, that there was a noise, that it came from that direction, and that it was approxiamately that far away.

And then you throw the grenade.

Splash damage MAY occur, according to how accurate the guess and throw was.

I never suggested it was going to be pinpoint accurate. I never said all 400 kobolds were armed with this stuff, I never said it was going to cause humungous amounts of damage. The object is TO HARRY!!!

PLEASE read what I actually say!!!

IT will cause concern amongst the earth-bound travellers, whether thick-headed fighters or NPCs.

And it is a valid tactic for a pathetic little kobold trying to defend its lair!

 

[Hypersmurf]

I figure if you know there's a lair of kobolds about, there's no need to go wasting resources beyond a 150gp black opal and one peasant.

As long as you have a 12th level non-good cleric.

Step one: kill the peasant. You're probably doing him a favour, 'cos being a peasant sucks anyway. And the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one...

Step two: Cast Create Undead to make a Shadow.

Step three: Command him with a turn attempt.

Step four: Send him out to find kobolds.

Incorporeal, can't be hit except by magic, immune to all the kobolds' sneaky traps and dire weasels. Can sneak around pretty much unseen until it finds some sleeping kobolds.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

By the time the kobold sorcerers know what's going on, half of the tribe are shadows under the control of shadows under the control of the shadow that's under your control.

And hundreds of kobold shadows waiting to do your bidding is worth one lousy peasant and an opal any day.

-Hyp.

 

[Skinwalker]

So I guess the next question is "What is the CR of 400 Shadows?"