D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[Manbearcat]

The fighter's friend is hurt, even dying. The fighter prays to the gods to heal their friend. How is this action resolved? If it's a Religion or similar sort of check, what's the DC?

Well...I think you have your answer to "does tactical infinity actually exist in D&D for most tables?!"

And I don't agree that you need a giant reservoir of fiction to conceptually resolve this. I've dealt with stuff like this in so many systems with so much divergent fiction and game engine dynamics that I'm just going to sub in some ideas for what this might look like, consider mechanical implications, and wing an answer.

Alright, as you know, I only run 5e very sparingly for a group that isn't a group that I typically run games for. So take this "not full time 5e GM" answer with in mind.

What I would likely do is the following:

* Medicine Kit makes stabilizing character's trivial, no check, so that is a problem right there. Getting people back in the fray is pretty common too so that is also a problem. This isn't that big of a deal.

* Wis (Medicine) also lets you stabilize without Medicine Kit. I would typically call this DC 15.

* If this was in combat and was to either (a) get an ally back into the action or (b) stave off a final Death Save, it would be an Action. Otherwise, its just freeform. If the use is for (a) I would make the DC 20 and the PC is up and goes back to 1 HP or if its (b) I would make it DC 15. Regardless, it would be Cha or Wis (player's choice depending on how they feel about the nature of their appeal or their relationship to the Gods...is this citing liturgy and resolving ritual with precision or is the strength of belief and compulsion to get the god to act, dammit!) w/ Religion.

* I would use the Basic PDF Fail Forward handling for this. We would stake a HD of your HP which you can't get back until you pray again (giving thanks) during a Long Rest. Further, create a Bond w/ this PC/God/Faith on a success or some kind of Flaw/(negative) Trait on a failure.
So, it looks like this:

Success = (a) or (b) above occurs + take Bond w/ this PC/God/Faith.

Failure = (a) or (b) above occurs + lose 1 (Class) HD worth of HP which are unrecoverable until Long Rest prayer + take Flaw/(negative) Trait signifying the trauma/hardship of the event.

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So...yeah.

The big problems for 5e here are (a) "this just ain't that big of a deal mechanically" (combats aren't difficult and getting people stabilized or back in fights isn't difficult) and (b) the machinery of BIFTs and toothy interaction with play isn't robust (but they do a smattering of non-ribbon work).

 

[Kobold Stew]

What I would do, assuming that this was something that makes sense for the campaign and the players in it;

First ask if the fighter is proficient in Religion? If not, the player should have a good reason why they would be able to effect this. This is, frankly, one of the great things backgrounds do (used to do) in this game. If the fighter was an Acolyte? Then absolutely: I would love to reward that choice.

Assuming that's not the case, I would ask the player whether they intend to take a level of Cleric at the next level-up (assuming they have a Wis 13; if they had cha and str I'd ask if they wanted paladin). Hopefully, that won't be too far away, but even if it were, if the player promises that this is now going to be part of their character's identity, then too, I might allow them to pull this off. It becomes a question both of how much the player and the character wants this to happen, which in my mind is better than a skill check that can easily fail. A dip in cleric is generally pretty strong in any case.

 

[TwoSix]

The simple response is that this is unanswerable as given (and as, IIRC, the OP does not play 5e, it's not a request for information but a statement about the game).

Since this specific issue doesn't come up as a rule, and because this is not within the enumerated class abilities, then it can only be answered be referring to the fiction. The premise in the OP does not provide any information about the fiction- what is the setting? Who is the fighter? What god is the fighter praying to? What is the prayer? What is the fighter's history? Who is the fighter's friend? And so on.

Without any further information about the fiction, there can be no further information about the resolution.

I like it as a philosophical gaming question because it reminds us that class acquisition, and the abilities granted by class, aren't generally diegetic even though we'd like think to they are.

Very few DMs are going to allow someone trained in the Arcana skill to cast magic missile with an Arcana check. But rationally, what's the difference in the fiction between someone trained in Arcana practicing to cast a spell and someone else multiclassing in wizard to gain that ability (and several others)? Most 5e DMs would allow the latter, but certainly not the former.

 

[Eric V]

If all the fighter does is pray? Probably nothing, in the vast majority of cases. I could imagine a case where this might have an effect, but I don’t think it’s be likely to come up in actual play.

May I ask why not? I don't believe a particular character's faith is necessarily measured in paladin or cleric levels...and assuming it's a world where there are active powers that have been known to have an effect on the world, why would it not happen?

Don't get me wrong: I know gods typically act through their avatars/paladins/clerics, but they probably aren't restricted to those avenues, so...couldn't it happen?

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, that fails to answer the question in multiple ways. If the fiction is not 'dissociated from the mechanics' then what stops this from working? Its a world filled with gods who answer prayers and do magic. So what are you saying, that your rules cannot produce that result? How do you justify that, and how does it differ from the supposed dissociation that is represented by A/E/D/U power slots? I mean, there are other dimensions to this as well, but we can start with that, I gotta head to work, lol.

Well, I answered the question as I would run it at my table in my post following the one you quoted. As for the whole “dissociated mechanics” thing, it’s nonsense that was made up to rag on 4e. I never had a problem with AEDU, I actually think it was a great system and it’s a shame WotC ditched it. Anyway, if gods definitively exist and intervene directly with mortals (not true of all 1st party D&D settings by the way, let alone all home campaigns), that doesn’t guarantee they will intervene to help any random fighter whenever he prays to them. I think a DM is 100% justified in ruling that this action has no reasonable chance of success and therefore not call for a roll.

 

[Imaro]

Well, that fails to answer the question in multiple ways. If the fiction is not 'dissociated from the mechanics' then what stops this from working?

The fact that healing miracles (healing spells) via the fiction and mechanics are tied up in magic and/or devotion (i.e. the cleric, paladin, druid, etc.). This fighter fiction wise has not been established to have either magic or devotion to the god he/she/they are praying to.

Its a world filled with gods who answer prayers and do magic.

For specifically devoted people they use as conduits. Nothing in the fiction of the game (or the rules) establish this for people without magic and/or devotion to said god. This is not to say the DM can't decide this is viable... but it's not the default.

So what are you saying, that your rules cannot produce that result?

Sure they can... through spells, and possibly blessings and charms in 5e

How do you justify that, and how does it differ from the supposed dissociation that is represented by A/E/D/U power slots? I mean, there are other dimensions to this as well, but we can start with that, I gotta head to work, lol.

I'm not seeing a dissociation, I'm seeing unfounded expectations of what is or isn't possible in this world via the default fiction.

 

[Charlaquin]

May I ask why not? I don't believe a particular character's faith is necessarily measured in paladin or cleric levels...and assuming it's a world where there are active powers that have been known to have an effect on the world, why would it not happen?

Don't get me wrong: I know gods typically act through their avatars/paladins/clerics, but they probably aren't restricted to those avenues, so...couldn't it happen?

As I said, I can imagine a scenario where it might work. It would require pretty extraordinary (in the literal sense of being beyond the ordinary) circumstances, and I just don’t see it as particularly likely to come up.

 

[Imaro]

I like it as a philosophical gaming question because it reminds us that class acquisition, and the abilities granted by class, aren't generally diegetic even though we'd like think to they are.

Very few DMs are going to allow someone trained in the Arcana skill to cast magic missile with an Arcana check. But rationally, what's the difference in the fiction between someone trained in Arcana practicing to cast a spell and someone else multiclassing in wizard to gain that ability (and several others)? Most 5e DMs would allow the latter, but certainly not the former.

The Arcana skill itself imparts no ability to cast spells... For me fictionally it's the difference between having academic knowledge... I watched the show Alone, vs having the practical skills... I have built shelter, hunted and lived in the woods with only a few basic supplies for weeks at a time...

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The fact that healing miracles (healing spells) via the fiction and mechanics are tied up in magic and/or devotion (i.e. the cleric, paladin, druid, etc.). This fighter fiction wise has not been established to have either magic or devotion to the god he/she/they are praying to.



For specifically devoted people they use as conduits. Nothing in the fiction of the game (or the rules) establish this for people without magic and/or devotion to said god. This is not to say the DM can't decide this is viable... but it's not the default.



Sure they can... through spells, and possibly blessings and charms in 5e



I'm not seeing a dissociation, I'm seeing unfounded expectations of what is or isn't possible in this world via the default fiction.

I guess what is the lucky feat? I think it’s someone looking out for you in most worlds.

I don’t like too hard of lines but do think the dm in question should decide for themselves. In games I play in, death happens and should not just be invalidated.

Conversely, the DM makes the call.

What if I got screwed? The dm in advertantly shafted me—I was outmatched and could not avoid the fight?

What about other scenarios? An npc has the right spell and was here to help. I think foreshadowing the presence of Allie’s in the region makes sense here.

I am ok with character death but don’t think the fiction rules out weird happenings or interesting happenings.

Rigidity is rarely our friend. But for me neither is a tone of free passes. What about they die but the survivor is in a mad dash to get him to a spellcaster within the time limit that allows his level of magic to revive the downed pc?if he fails, let it stand. Prayer helped those who helped themselves…if they were successful?

 

[TwoSix]

The Arcana skill itself imparts no ability to cast spells... For me fictionally it's the difference between having academic knowledge... I watched the show Alone, vs having the practical skills... I have built shelter, hunted and lived in the woods with only a few basic supplies for weeks at a time...

Ok, sure. But what, in fiction, differentiates a wizard from someone trained in Arcana? Or what, in fiction, separates a pious, prayerful acolyte from a cleric?

It's not that one can't come up with narrative reasons for it, it's more that class mechanics restrain certain fiction arising from diegetic play. The narrative of "young boy discovers a lost grimoire and learns how to summon magical power" isn't something that happens in-play without a lot of meta discussion between the player and the DM about how to modify the character accordingly.