What's the Deal with GriefCom?

Dannyalcatraz said:
If RPG companies give such advantageous wholesale prices to online retailers that most FLGSs go under, they'll lose bargaining leverage. Those online retailers will become (virtually) the sole outlets for the product, resulting in monopsony/oligopsony- a single or small pool of large wholesale purchasers who then can dictate the price to the product suppliers.

And monopsony/oligopsony is just a step away from monopoly/oligopoly...and dictating prices to consumers.

To echo Kae'Yoss somewhat, I can't wrap my head around the idea that to prevent online retailers to become a monopsony (and yay! A new term), we should prevent them from competing fairly. And by competing fairly, I mean allowing Amazon.Com to pass on the lower price they get the books for (by using volume or the fact that they get distributor prices) on to the customer. That's basically price-fixing, which is a Bad Thing for the consumers.

It also confuses me that some of the companies that are the most vocal about the "evil" of Amazon.Com and other on-line retailers (but yeah, it's pretty much amazon) due to the damage they inflict on B&M stores tend to also be the most vocal proponents of books in PDF form. Sure, at this point, PDFs are such a small market that they don't really hurt B&M much, but if they -do- become a Big Thing, they'll do much, much more damage to FLGS than online-sellers ever will, for rather obvious reasons. So.. if B&M stores are such a vital, inherent need of the hobby as a whole, why promote the sale of PDFs so aggressively?

bardsandsages said:
This thread has spun in a completely different direction! But to pick up on this point, B&M stores need to help themselves. There use to be no less than four shops within a 15 mile radius of me, only about a half hour drive in any direction. I have stopped shopping in them long ago. Here are a few reasons why:

I'm a female, professional who like to game. When I walk into a store, I don't want to be gawked at by some 18 year old cashier chewing on his tongue ring while leaning over a counter with a copy of Maxim in plain view. I consider myself pretty average looking to begin with, and I certain am not walking into the shop wearing anything remotely gawkworthy. I don't want to be looked at like a piece of meat.

When I go into a shop, I don't want to be stepping on doritoes and puddles of spilt soda that haven't been cleaned up. This is a business, not you're mother's basement. If you aren't gonna keep the carpet clean, pull it up and put in tile. Dust once in a while.

Many of them are built like closets, not shops. The aisles are so small you have to rub up against people to get around. You can't browse when you have people constantly bumping into you to get around.

Poor selection. Most ONLY carry WoTC, White Wolf, and maybe two or three other publishers. For that, I can sit in my pajamas at home and order from Amazon.

Poor service. Cashiers are generally bored or disinterested in doing anything other than giving you change, and even then they drag their feet.

Over the last few years, all four of the shops have closed down. I don't believe ANY of the closing had to do with a deflating of the RPG community, but had to do with all of the above.

I hear ya, but in my experience, which, of course, is merely anecdotal, those shops have mostly either closed or improved. But even the shops with good service, clean floors and whatnot are suffering. Stocking many lines is still an issue, but the thing here is that doing so often hurts the store more than it helps. People -want- the store to offer lots of choice, but most people don't -buy- lots of different lines, and those unsold books hurt the bottom line a lot, so it's a lose-lose situation.

Myself, I don't really care if all FLGS close. They do me absolutely no direct good, so paying higher prices to help them out makes no direct sense. The solution for the hobby as a whole (which I'd qualify as indirect good for myself) is not to artificially keep them in business, but to replace the good they do with something else. The Internet has replaced many functions they used to have, and there's no reason why other ways of promoting the hobbies can't be found.
 

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Bardsandsages said:
How about because Wizards is also paying copy editors, proof readers, illustrators, warehouse employees, truck drivers, office support staff, marketing people, sales people, and dozens of others. And let's not forget that the book sellers have clerks and staff that need to get paid. And oh, there is the overhead involved in leasing the building, paying electricity, licenses, taxes....

There is a mark up on EVERYTHING that you buy. The typical mark up for a fountain soda os almost almost 700x the actual cost of the syrup and seltzer to make it. But that mark up includes money to actual pay people. Unless, of course, everyone should work for free...but then nobody would have money to buy anything.

Irrelevant to a consumer.

It doesnt matter if its a gamingbook or a refrigerator or a car: people are going to shop for the best deal they can get for their money. Just like the Author is going to try and wrangle the best contract out of the company, just like The manufacturer is going to try and get the most money from the sale of their product.

If WotC doesnt want discounters to sell online, they need to stop selling it to Amazon. Until such time, if I can get it cheaper, I will. There isnt a reason I should have to buy it at full pop if I dont have to.
 

I'm a female, professional who like to game. <snip>I don't want to be looked at like a piece of meat.

And I'm black.

I get followed in music stores, electronics stores, jewelry stores- almost anywhere where the goods are small and valuable- and ignored in places like high-end car dealerships where the goods are big and expensive. I get stared at when I go to metal shows. I deal with it.

What you're describing isn't the retailer's fault, its a symptom of the underdeveloped social skills that a lot of guys in the hobby have (not an excuse, just a reason). Like it or not, women represent only a small minority in the hobby. Regardless of your personal assessment of your appearance, you're a rare bird- you're going to draw attention.

When I go into a shop, I don't want to be stepping on doritoes and puddles of spilt soda that haven't been cleaned up. This is a business, not you're mother's basement. If you aren't gonna keep the carpet clean, pull it up and put in tile. Dust once in a while.

THAT is something entirely within the business' control, and unless it were my only option, I wouldn't shop in a pigsty either.

Many of them are built like closets, not shops. The aisles are so small you have to rub up against people to get around. You can't browse when you have people constantly bumping into you to get around.

In my experience, game shops operate on narrow profit margins, and are often forced into smaller, cheaper rental spaces than they'd like. Of the true game stores I've visited over my 28 years in the hobby (covering 8 cities and the D/FW Metroplex), only 6 have had what I'd consider to be a typical shop layout- nice wide aisles, good lighting, etc.

Of those, 4 were in malls. One was in a warehouse. One is a chain here in D/FW. Of the mall stores, 2 are now out of business- their overhead was too high to compete in the market.

Poor selection. Most ONLY carry WoTC, White Wolf, and maybe two or three other publishers. For that, I can sit in my pajamas at home and order from Amazon.

That is something I've warned game store owners about. Unfortunately, this is partly a result of what we described just above- store size.

The only thing a FLGS can do that an online retailer can't just as well or better is demo a game, but to do that, you have to have space.

Which most don't have, and neither do they have the cash flow or available space to expand and do game demos.
Poor service. Cashiers are generally bored or disinterested in doing anything other than giving you change, and even then they drag their feet.

Again, good service or its lack is a perfectly valid reason to give a shop your cash.

I've noted in particular that business in America hasn't quite embraced the notion that service can make or break a business.

To echo Kae'Yoss somewhat, I can't wrap my head around the idea that to prevent online retailers to become a monopsony (and yay! A new term), we should prevent them from competing fairly. And by competing fairly, I mean allowing Amazon.Com to pass on the lower price they get the books for (by using volume or the fact that they get distributor prices) on to the customer. That's basically price-fixing, which is a Bad Thing for the consumers.

Again, if Amazon.com is passing along prices to customers that have to with competitive advantages- better volume discounts and the like- that's cool. If, OTOH, the price Amazon.com is selling a product for is also shaped by intentionally selling that product for a loss in order to drive smaller competitors out of business- that's a crime known as predatory pricing. Because of its size, its also a practice that Amazon (or similar large retailer) can do virtually at will and for an arbitrarily long time.

Only time and pending investigations will tell.
 

I dunno man. While it's possible, it requires a bit too much tinfoil for me to believe that Amazon would lose money on the sale of RPG books to drive FLGS out of business, given how small potatoes RPG books are for them overall. And when you look around Amazon.com, you realize they have similar discounts on -everything-, which means that they'd.. What, take a loss on everything they sell in order to run everyone else out of business? They'd have been the first to go, long ago.
 

Barak said:
I dunno man. While it's possible, it requires a bit too much tinfoil for me to believe that Amazon would lose money on the sale of RPG books to drive FLGS out of business, given how small potatoes RPG books are for them overall. And when you look around Amazon.com, you realize they have similar discounts on -everything-, which means that they'd.. What, take a loss on everything they sell in order to run everyone else out of business? They'd have been the first to go, long ago.
Predatory pricing is not the stuff of conspiracy theory. It certainly is not tinfoil hat territory or difficult to believe. It's illegal specifically because it was used regularly as part of the "robber baron" era of US history to crush the little guy. Doing away with it was of a piece with the trustbusting you read about back in High School. :)

Amazon, or indeed, any large retailer could engage in predatory pricing as a way to help their long-term bottom line. It's been done before, and undoubtedly happens now and then in the modern era. Would they target LGSes in particular? Probably not. It's a tiny industry with crappy returns. But would they engage in the practice on a broader scale?

Well, they *could*, if they wanted to. It being a crime, I wont' accuse them of it, but like Danny will allow the possibility, and wait for the outcome of any investigation.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
THAT is something entirely within the business' control, and unless it were my only option, I wouldn't shop in a pigsty either.

The part about "only option" is the point here.

game shops ... are often forced into smaller, cheaper rental spaces than they'd like.

The FLGS I buy my DDM in just moved into another space that is larger.
 

Kae'Yoss said:
The FLGS I buy my DDM in just moved into another space that is larger.


I have the opposite problem: mine just moved into a smaller space....which means less tables and such, when they already had few tables to begin with....
 

I'm a female, professional who like to game. <snip>I don't want to be looked at like a piece of meat.

And I'm black.

I get followed in music stores, electronics stores, jewelry stores- almost anywhere where the goods are small and valuable- and ignored in places like high-end car dealerships where the goods are big and expensive. I get stared at when I go to metal shows. I deal with it.

What you're describing isn't the retailer's fault, its a symptom of the underdeveloped social skills that a lot of guys in the hobby have (not an excuse, just a reason). Like it or not, women represent only a small minority in the hobby. Regardless of your personal assessment of your appearance, you're a rare bird- you're going to draw attention.

It doesn't matter what the underlying cause is. There's no reason women should subject themselves to abuse in order to patronize a local store when they do not have to do so.

And as for whether its the retailers fault... 1) who cares, as stated above, and 2) frequently, yes, its the retailer's fault. If you encourage your customers to behave as a community which gathers at your store, then you are somewhat responsible as a business owner for maintaining that community. My parents run a business in which the creation of a community of customers who come together to enjoy each other's company is as much a part of the draw of the business as is the actual services provided. If we have customers who are making our business unpleasant for outsiders to patronize, it is our obligation, not morally, but in terms of business acumen, to get rid of the bad apples.

I'd even go further, in fact, and suggest to those who believe that it is the responsibility of WOTC or of gamers or local store owners or really anyone to act as stewards of the hobby: if you believe that, then you need to take seriously the way your fellow gamers treat women poorly. That's something that damages the hobby in a way that you yourself can mitigate. Get to work. If you don't feel like that's someone's obligation, fine; but if you've ever whinged about wotc being the steward of the gaming community perhaps you should get up off your couch and do some stewarding of your own. You don't have to babysit women to make sure they're happy in gaming stores, but next time the local jackass is hovering over her trying to tell her how the comic she's buying is terrible and only losers read it, and how she should buy what he likes, go call the loser off. Its easy, and makes a difference.
 

Barak said:
I dunno man. While it's possible, it requires a bit too much tinfoil for me to believe that Amazon would lose money on the sale of RPG books to drive FLGS out of business, given how small potatoes RPG books are for them overall. And when you look around Amazon.com, you realize they have similar discounts on -everything-, which means that they'd.. What, take a loss on everything they sell in order to run everyone else out of business? They'd have been the first to go, long ago.

You are right, they don't intentionally lose money.

Roughly 14 years ago I worked with a guy that had proposed to the owners of our then employer to create an online bookstore. His idea was to provide a low cost storefront that would specialize in providing books for people that couldn't get to bookstores. Since the business was a bookstore, he had access to cost structures and could do a business plan/proposition. Unfortunately, http/html wasn't widely adopted and he proposed using gopher as the interface to the (internet savvy) customer. The plan was good in principle - provide a service to people who didn't have a local bookstore, at a low cost of business to the existing Brick & Mortar business. There were also ideas on how to offer discounting to increase the number of customers and begin to create a larger discount structure, based on quantity, for the entire business.

Unfortunately the plan was rejected. A few years later, Amazon.com came around. (And no, I didn't know Jeff Bezos. Bezos was hardly original in his ideas. He was original in finding a way to implement them! And he did so successfully.)

Many small bookstores use Ingram Micro to fill their stock. Ingram provides a 35% discount. Small bookstores cannot compete with Amazon. Small bookstores cannot compete with the chain stores. Small bookstores cannot purchase in sufficient quantities to be worth the time of a publisher to deal with directly. Believe it or not, a publisher doesn't want to deal with collections and lines of credit on such small invoices. Small bookstores purchase in single and double digit quantities for titles. Large chains and Amazon purchase in much, much, greater quantities.

It is very similar when dealing with game stores. I have worked at a local bookstore. Years ago I worked at the FLGS/Distributor.

Amazon doesn't need to try to sell below cost. Amazon does need to sell at a high enough margin to remain profitable. (They have been profitable since late 2002, early 2003.) But they specialize in leveraging quantity sales and providing online service that is comparable, if not better, than traditional brick & mortar businesses. They build enough customer base that they can purchase (and then resell) at the same rates that chain stores can.

I readily admit I am not well versed in WotC's practices at the moment. But it seems unlikely that very many gaming resellers (online or B&M) in the US are purchasing directly from WotC. They are purchasing from the distribution chain. Most people that tell you WotC won't sell to them are correct. But the reasons might not be as apparent, or accurate.

WotC is not in business to deal directly with hundreds of small resellers with questionable lines of credit. WotC doesn't maintain a large Accounts Receivable department solely to collect from small resellers. WotC doesn't maintain a large shipping department to individually package 3 copies of the latest splatbook. They sell in bulk, they sell a case or several cases of each splatbook.

The problem is that the distribution channel cuts an extra 10% off your discounts. So savvy online resellers would rather not deal with the distribution channel. They want to deal with the publisher. Of course, they want to deal with the publisher on their own terms, deeper discount, smaller revolving inventory, without recognizing that the competition (Amazon) is working with economies of scale. Amazon might order more copies of Complete Mage in their initial purchase than entire gamestores will purchase in their operational lifetime.

Online businesses are hurting brick & mortars. But that is because many brick & mortars are not nimble enough to adjust to the rapidly changing climate. They cut costs by having less motivated/skilled workers? Online stores respond by provide customer provided reviews that are at least as good as the lacadasical employee at the local store. Then the online store might choose to give you a slight credit for the time you took to write the review. B&M cut costs by moving to a smaller, cheaper location? The online store doesn't have a location, and doesn't need one. Reduce stock to keep your cash flow healthier? Good idea! Just don't be out of stock when the customer comes in. Amazon is rarely out of stock and they can tell you when they will fill your order. The best brick & mortar businesses have always been running a good business. They have built customer loyalty by providing the things that an online store simply cannot. They run efficiently and employ people that truly care. Online resellers are simply culling the herd of the less efficient business.

It's rough and in some ways it sucks. There are people going out of business. People who always dreamed of owning their own business. Unfortunately, some of those people were not well suited to running an efficient business. Now they are losing. Not because they didn't have heart, but just because they can't respond rapidly enough to the changes in our society. It is the same thing that happens when the big chain stores come into a new town.

Could there be improper business practices? Sure, I suppose there could. But we have little proof of that. Especially not from a few authors that don't understand how WotC is accounting for royalty payments.
 

Chiaroscuro23 said:
Predatory pricing is not the stuff of conspiracy theory. It certainly is not tinfoil hat territory or difficult to believe. It's illegal specifically because it was used regularly as part of the "robber baron" era of US history to crush the little guy. Doing away with it was of a piece with the trustbusting you read about back in High School. :)

Amazon, or indeed, any large retailer could engage in predatory pricing as a way to help their long-term bottom line. It's been done before, and undoubtedly happens now and then in the modern era. Would they target LGSes in particular? Probably not. It's a tiny industry with crappy returns. But would they engage in the practice on a broader scale?

Well, they *could*, if they wanted to. It being a crime, I wont' accuse them of it, but like Danny will allow the possibility, and wait for the outcome of any investigation.

Of course predatory pricing has and does exist. Other than the fact that it's illegal, it's not a bad idea, done right. But in this case, it would be Amazon's whole business strategy. Let's sell at a loss, in every market, all the time!

And that would be dumb.

Edit: And note that in certain circumstances, they sell new releases at MSRP. When circumstances makes it so they don't get huge discounts, they don't offer huge discounts. Which is why old releases are never sold at deep discounts, since by that point they don't buy huge quantities, and therefore don't get deep discounts. If they were really in the business of shutting down B&M RPG stores, they'd be offering deep discounts forever.
 
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