What's the difference between D20 Fantasy and D&D?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Then the analogy still is accurate. The Aston Martin, despite your opinion, is still an Aston Martin. Even if they decided to completely reimagine it as a little red scooter. YOu'd be accurate to say, it does not look like the old design of the Aston Martin, but you'd be inccurate saying its not an Aston Martin. Just like with the Aston Marton, we have little say so in the actual facts. I can believe my brothers a little green frog, but factually he is still a human being. 3.e is dungeons and dragons as factually designed by WOTC.

*grins*

I want it on record that it wasn't me who said the thing about 3e being a little red scooter masquerading as an Aston Martin.

You are attempting to say that if something has future editions, it is no longer considered the product of the first edition

I'm saying that I choose not to call 3e "D&D". You are free to choose differently.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Yeah, but size of the community doesn't explain why they'd participate in it, as it's still ostensibly dedicated to something that they openly loathe. In fact, being large, it's arguably more of what they loathe. You'd think that this would make ENWorld less attractive.

1. I don't loathe 3.x. I just don't think it's D&D.
2. This community does support discussions about the games I think are D&D.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Another thought experiment;

Let's say Hasbro buys Kenzer&Co, and makes Hackmaster the next edition of D&D.

Would those of you who object to D&D3e being called D&D accept Hackmaster as being "true" D&D?

Hackmaster is not (A)D&D. It is however based on a license of AD&D.*

Or is it only the rerelease of you favourite version of D&D* that will forever and ever qualify as being "D&D"?

Favorite has nothing to do with it (at least for me). I like d20. I think it's a great game. I think it allows both DMs and players to go outside what has been "D&D canon" in positive ways. But it is a different system (game) from (A)D&D.

*Kenzer only has a license to AD&D (first and second edition). WotC still owns the IP.

 

[Aaron L]

I'm saying that I choose not to call 3e "D&D". You are free to choose differently.

Which is, in effect, sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "naah naah I can't hear you!"

 

[jdrakeh]

I think that is wholly unfair - I think most defenders of OD&D, AD&D, 1E, 2E whatever aren't automatically critical of 3E/3.5

Well, I'm not talking about those folks. Just look at this thread. This thread had nothing to do with older editions of the game -- there wasn't any critcism of those games to defend against initially, yet many people weighed in almost immediately to attack the current edition of D&D by saying that it wasn't worthy of the name.

These are the folks I'm talking about. The completely unreasonable folks who seem to contribute little to the forums past screeds about how D&D 3x sucks, isn't worthy of the name, etc. What I wondered is why, if these folks dislike the curent edition of D&D so much, do they post here? There are other communities where discussion of D&D 3x is discouraged or even verboten. Why not post there, instead?

Take myself, for example - on more than a few occasions I have spoken out in defense of 1E and 2E when they were receiving a sound thumping in an "edition warz" type thread.

Defending the games is different. That's not what happened on this thread (initially). Here, certain people jumped in to say that they call the current edition of D&D "d20 Fantasy" because it's not worthy of the D&D name.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all old-school fans who post here behave like that -- 'cause they don't. Folks like Akrasia, Calithena, Diaglo, Melan, Treebore, and so on contribute a great deal to ENWorld. Then you have those other folks. The ones who only post bitter screeds about how D&D 3x is teh suXXorz!

I just can't see what the big deal is...

There is no "big deal" -- I'm just curious why the folks who rarely contribute to the forums past "D&D 3x suXXorz!" post here at all. It simply seems that their time would be better spent at other communities.

 

[Maggan]

So if a bunch of 15 year olds "bought" the right to the name Led Zeppelin, that would make them Led Zeppelin?

There's actually precedent in music band names.

Marillion is still Marillion, even though only 1 original band mamber remains. Genesis is (was) still Genesis even though only two band members remained from the "golden" age. And so on so forth.

But then, the same kind of debates rage over those bands.

"That's not the true Marillion! They stopped existing when Fish left! I will never call the current band Marillion! I'll call it ... d20 Symphonic Rock! Take that!"

/Maggan

 

[Gentlegamer]

The band formerly known as Metallica is now properly known as Selloutica. Just wanted to throw that in.

 

[Maggan]

Hackmaster is not (A)D&D. It is however based on a license of AD&D.*
Favorite has nothing to do with it (at least for me). I like d20. I think it's a great game. I think it allows both DMs and players to go outside what has been "D&D canon" in positive ways. But it is a different system (game) from (A)D&D.

*Kenzer only has a license to AD&D (first and second edition). WotC still owns the IP.

Okay, so if WotC rerelsead AD&D2nd edition ... would that be worthy of the name D&D?

Or do you call that something else as well? I'm curious as to where the line is drawn. Hackmaster is based on AD&D both in rules and style, but yet would not be worthy of the D&D name. So a rule set would have to hew so very, very closely to one of the earlier editions that only a verbatim reprint of said edition would satisfy the definition.

And I'm really curios as to whether the vocal "D&D3e is not D&D" crowd would agree on which edition best encapsulates the feeling of "D&D" if we were to make a poll. It's easy enough to be united in defiance against one cause, but often when looking closer at what unites people, it's not as clear cut as one might think.

For me, the quintessential D&D experience is the red Basic D&D box, with the Blue Expert box and the Companion set. To me, that is the essence of D&D, and if I were to opt for a straight reprint of one earlier edition, that would be it.

Would that be D&D to you?

/M

 

[Maggan]

The band formerly known as Metallica is now properly known as Selloutica. Just wanted to throw that in.

Even without any changes in the band setup? Harsh ...

/Maggan

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And then I wonder how people are able to slaughter each other over the topic of slightly different religious observances, language barriers or skin colors, when we aren't even able to discuss a game titled Dungeons & Dragons. What's next, some 2000 years old guy popping up, declaiming loudly that "your weird, industrialized version of Chess is indeed not chess at all, and I know what I'm talking about, so from now on it shall be called Squarehopping Kings when I talk about it!"? Just because D&D went through more rule changes/year than other very popular games doesn't mean it's suddenly not D&D anymore. And indeed, going around and claiming that "I call it d20 Fantasy because it's not D&D to me" when the whole damn community calls it that, and it's actually titled that by the publisher, is a streak of arrogance, as it means you're setting yourself aloof of the big majority of D&D players AND the publishers, telling them they have no clue as to that game's true title. Even if you simply think you're just giving your opinion, it's done in such an arrogant manner that some people can't help being insulted by it, because to many the veiled message always will be "It is not really D&D, and you have no clue about the TRUE D&D if you call that game D&D." And if you actually understand the problem that such a message is, and still continue to do so, you either show a lot of ignorance for the discomfort of others, or you notice and simply don't care. Either way, it's not very friendly.

So could we go back to wondering what the difference between a specific game system and the extracted, generalized game engine used for all kinds of fantasy might be, please? This edition snobbery is really getting itchy as to where the common sense of humans is concerned.