D&D 5E (2014) What's the point of gold?

[Jester David]

Worked on my own list of magic item prices based on chart placement and percentage change of acquiring.
You can find it here.

 

[billd91]

Worked on my own list of magic item prices based on chart placement and percentage change of acquiring.
You can find it here.

Thanks for posting that. I'm not sure I'll use the pricing, but the convenient breakdown into scarcity should be useful to me.

 

[Riley37]

I don't agree that that constitutes "trivialization" of the encounter. It makes it a regular encounter where good planning and good tactics and good use of terrain result in victory, possibly even a victory at little cost to the PCs. The original claim was that you can't use hobgoblins at high levels because AoE spells trivialize the encounters, and that claim has been thoroughly debunked by subsequent discussion including your recent post

Okay, I'm with you there. I could quibble about whether enough arrows would actually hit for 80 HP+ of damage, but that's not the significant point.

In the sense that you meant - and I am clearer now than before, on the distinction - 100 hobgoblins are non-trivial opposition. As in, something to be played out, one way or another, combat or not. The PCs have ways to establish advantage way before initiative gets rolled, or to prevent an initiative roll from occurring. Back to the topic of spending gold, they might bribe the hobgoblins to let them pass (or to attack some other city, whatever). They might use an illusion to scare away or misdirect the hobgoblins, but that costs a spell slot and thus changes the resource reserves they had before and after they came across the hobgoblins. If breaking the hobgoblins as an armed force is necessary, or even killing/incapacitating many of them, then the PCs still have ways to win, and fairly handy ways to win if they're clever and are "on their game" before direct contact, but those are also things to play out and also might cost resources.

If that's what you meant by nontrivial, then sure, you're right, carry on, sorry I misunderstood.

I was thinking trivial/nontrivial in the sense of "is this an encounter the PCs might lose". If the PCs are clever or just methodical, and willing to expend some resources, then no. The PCs, when they know the terms of the encounter, can reasonably tell NPCs such as a city council, "don't worry, we GOT this, consider it handled". The PCs then still have to actually handle it, but the city council can have reasonable confidence that this particular horde of 100 hobgoblins will never cross the city gate. Again, bar disaster - the outlier odds in which any event (including "I go to the store for milk") could become an unexpected failure - which can happen, but only if something goes very, very wrong.

I was playing in a 5E Adventurer's League game, and at one point, the PCs entered a destination area (abandoned temple) guarded by a force of kobolds and urds. After two rounds, the DM proposed to handwave the rest of the encounter, on the grounds that we clearly had enough power to defeat them handily and to then heal any lost HP easily (one player had a healing feat and a medical kit, another had a reserve of 30 Goodberries, etc.) I voted for playing it out, so that we the players got practice, against an easily-defeated foe, in running our PCs as an effective team... because there were likely to be harder foes deeper within the temple complex, and player experience in easy fights could prepare us for effectively handing not-so-easy fights. So we played it out, eventually the surviving kobolds broke and ran, the ranger picked off a few fleeing foes, we healed a few scratches and then entered the temple complex. It was a reasonable use of session time, not to see *whether* we'd get past the guard force, but to see *how* we'd get past the guard force. I also think the DM's offer to handwave the rest of the fight was fair, and another group of players might have reasonably taken the offer. That's my from-played-experience example.

If a table spent over an hour of session time on the attack and damage rolls required to mow through 100 fanatic-morale hobgoblins, then I might change my mind about what to play out and what to handwave, just sayin'.

Are we now on compatible pages, if not identical pages?

When you assumed that I would use Meteor or Fireball, when other spells are much more effective (and slot-cost-effective) for that encounter, I was kinda wondering if I'd end up ignoring you. I'm now seeing you as someone with significant points, at a deeper structural level than spell tactics. FWIW.

"Quantity has a quality of its own." - Is that from Stalin? Well, yes. There's ways to use 100 troops and still have most of them afterwards, and there's more ways to use them if you don't mind having only 20 or 50 of them afterwards.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Are we now on compatible pages, if not identical pages?

Yep. I agree with what you're saying now that I understand your meaning[1].

To expand a little bit on your kobold scenario, I feel that encounters should end whenever the dramatic question is answered, or when the players lose interest, whichever comes latest. (If the players enjoy hunting down every last little kobold, well, I live to serve.) In some cases, that requires combat rules and die-rolling, but I can certainly imagine scenarios where the players manage to stack the odds in their favor (e.g. catch the hobgoblin company in close quarters where numbers can't be brought to bear) and in such a case I'd be perfectly willing to say, "Okay, we can play this out or you can each expend 3d6 HP or two spell slots of any level and just narrate to me how you defeated them". Or they could do the in-between course like your DM did: play out a couple of rounds and then extrapolate from there. But there does come a point where the encounter has been trivialized and I'd rather just skip to the resolution.

There will be other cases where the deck isn't stacked quite so thoroughly, and even cases where the PCs think they've got the deck stacked but the principle of surprise comes into play. ("Surprise is what happens when something you've seen all along turns out to be something different than you thought.") If the kobolds are really just trying to get the players to chase them into a dragon's lair so they can turn the tables, then the real dramatic question isn't "will the kobolds stop the PCs from entering the caves?" but "will the cunning kobolds draw the PCs into a trap?" In this case you'd want to play out the encounter past the point where it appears to have been trivialized.

Personally I don't find die-rolling to be nearly as fun as strategy--I could play a completely diceless game of D&D where all random events are converted to expected-value occurences and still have fun, because to me the fun part is managing partial information. "Did we really kill that lich and take his treasure, or is it a trap? He went down suspiciously easy, not at all like someone who can cast 10th level invisible Prismatic Wall spells like we've been encountering in every room of this dungeon. I bet that magic staff is actually his phylactery!" That kind of thing.

TLDR; I think I basically agree with you, and apparently it's mutual.

-Max

[1] News flash! "Internet argument resolved amicably and productively! More at eleven!" This is why I like Enworld.

 

[MoonSong]

I will honor my signature and say, i believe this thread has been exhausted. The rest of it is some kind of off-topic about monsters and even that is over...

 

[Riley37]

If the kobolds are really just trying to get the players to chase them into a dragon's lair so they can turn the tables, then the real dramatic question isn't "will the kobolds stop the PCs from entering the caves?" but "will the cunning kobolds draw the PCs into a trap?" In this case you'd want to play out the encounter past the point where it appears to have been trivialized.

Hah, I was *just yesterday* reading about the battle of Cowpen. The rebel leader had some militia with a history of running away at the first actual shot. So he put in the first rank, and *told* them about a fallback position. He then positioned his regular forces further back.

The Royals showed up, saw the militia, opened fire. The militia broke and ran. The Royal commander ordered immediate pursuit (often a good move because killing people as they flee is one-sided). Pursuit led the Royals into the kill box, without their cannon well-positioned. Rebel regulars and cannon opened fire from cover. Rebel victory ensued. It was one of the big steps between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitutional Convention... because it proved that Continental Army forces were non-trivial encounters for the British Army.

Back to your example: The PCs open with Hunger of Hadar or some such, but the kobolds, instead of advancing through the Hunger (ouch), fall back in good order. The PCs advance steadily. When the kobolds have fallen back to the cave entrance, they hold for one or two more volleys, then drop their bows and run into the cave. At point, one the players says "Looks like we mop them up, loot, and heal." While players are debating whether to take a Short Rest, and one of them is already rolling for Bardic Song of Healing, and another is arguing over whether the bows are worth carrying as loot, the DM says "Nope, you're still in combat time, if you want to pursue then follow the initiative list - Hank, your dwarven barbarian has the next turn, now that the kobolds have acted this round." Hank, who just LIVES for Attack Rolls and damage dice, salivates and moves his figure on the battlemat, delighted that he hasn't lost Rage. The more wary players can perhaps guess that the DM has a card up his sleeve. Joe, who plays a gnomish druid, asks if it's too meta-game to start checking for pit traps and arrow traps, because, you know, kobolds and traps. DM smiles and says, no problem, your character knows that kobolds sometimes set traps, so do you want to take the Observe action this turn, or do you cast Detect Traps?

Why no, there aren't any pit traps, as such, but there IS what looks like a tunnel hole in the cave floor - big enough that a kobold could climb down it, and there's an abandoned bow and quiver right by it, and a cloak decorated with a symbol of Tiamat. No, a human could not squeeze into that tunnel. A gnome? You could try, later, but you've already used your action on Observe. Diane, your paladin has the last action this round... yes, you now know where the tunnel entrance is, assuming that the druid's pointed it out to the whole party, so move your figure if you're moving, please.

The dragon is in a lower level, waiting for the best moment to send a breath attack up through the vent; she prefers attacking in ways which don't give the enemy line of sight to her.

News flash! "Internet argument resolved amicably and productively! More at eleven!" This is why I like Enworld.

Yup. I think the XP and Laugh system has a good influence. It's like XP for treasure, not for defeating foes...

 

[Riley37]

I will honor my signature and say, i believe this thread has been exhausted. The rest of it is some kind of off-topic about monsters and even that is over...

The original question got an adequate and valid answer on page 1.

FWIW, I'm *still*baffled at how a PC could say "Well, all this gold and silver is useless, without magic items for sale. I guess we throw all the coins down a well." I mean, there's been a bit of an answer, but not from anyone who actually says that in character, nor from a DM whose players are saying that.

 

[Derren]

The original question got an adequate and valid answer on page 1.

FWIW, I'm *still*baffled at how a PC could say "Well, all this gold and silver is useless, without magic items for sale. I guess we throw all the coins down a well." I mean, there's been a bit of an answer, but not from anyone who actually says that in character, nor from a DM whose players are saying that.

What else is there to do with gold? There is no other equipment progression beyond plate mail, most consumables besides healing potions and also upkeep is glossed over (and when not they are trivial). The often mentioned carousing pretty much is equal to throwing coins down the well as it serves no purpose. There are some big ticket items in the rules (hastily added when the designers realized that their reward balance is broken without magic items in my opinion) like strongholds and ships but, like bribes, they are extremely situational and there is absolutely no guidelines in the books about how to handle them in game neither for the DM or player making them more like vanity items than a actually useful things.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I suppose that's true if the DM needs his hand gently held throughout the duration Ida campaign.

 

[Remathilis]

What else is there to do with gold? There is no other equipment progression beyond plate mail, most consumables besides healing potions and also upkeep is glossed over (and when not they are trivial). The often mentioned carousing pretty much is equal to throwing coins down the well as it serves no purpose. There are some big ticket items in the rules (hastily added when the designers realized that their reward balance is broken without magic items in my opinion) like strongholds and ships but, like bribes, they are extremely situational and there is absolutely no guidelines in the books about how to handle them in game neither for the DM or player making them more like vanity items than a actually useful things.

Short version: Gold is useless unless its making me moar powarfulz!!! 11!

Seriously, there is more to D&D then murderhobos slaughtering everything in sight and creating perfect combos of items to render you defenses perfect and your dps xtreme. I'm sorry you don't find land, businesses, followers, and such important, but pardon us who think the system as is isn't "broken" or "short sighted".

Go have fun equipping your toon with kewl powerz, I'm done with this.