D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Kikuras]

There seems to be a sub-concern of the original postulation that has turned a lot of this thread into a debate about magic items. Personally I don't care about magic items and how they appear in 5e. The problem I have is that I can think of a dozen creative things to do with my gold, as a PC, yet the best WotC was able to do, for the most part, is "Uhhh.... Make it up."

Making it up is fine, if the DM is willing to, but without some more solid basic rules for DMs and players to use, pretty much the whole thing comes down to whether or not your DM is in the mood for it. We have to remember that the published rules are out there to establish a baseline for the lowest common denominator, and we cannot assume that our personal willingness as a DM is representative of what the average layer will face.

Of course this issue is not only a 5e issue. Also, the rules for running a business are a bit one-dimensional, there should be profitability modifiers for geographic monopolies and such.

 

[Ahrimon]

There seems to be a sub-concern of the original postulation that has turned a lot of this thread into a debate about magic items. Personally I don't care about magic items and how they appear in 5e. The problem I have is that I can think of a dozen creative things to do with my gold, as a PC, yet the best WotC was able to do, for the most part, is "Uhhh.... Make it up."

Making it up is fine, if the DM is willing to, but without some more solid basic rules for DMs and players to use, pretty much the whole thing comes down to whether or not your DM is in the mood for it. We have to remember that the published rules are out there to establish a baseline for the lowest common denominator, and we cannot assume that our personal willingness as a DM is representative of what the average layer will face.

Of course this issue is not only a 5e issue. Also, the rules for running a business are a bit one-dimensional, there should be profitability modifiers for geographic monopolies and such.

But they didn't just say "uhhh.... Make it up." as many posters like to falsely accuse them of. It's not a highly detailed system but it's there. There's a system for making and buying magic items. There's a system for buying castles and businesses as well. It's all there, but it was purposefully (and not maliciously) kept simple because there are way to many playstyles out there for one system to fit every game. The systems they gave us are starting points. Enough for a game where the DM doesn't want to put in the work and a good starting point for a DM that wants a more detailed system. By keeping it basic it also allows those DMs to customize it to their campaign.

Even if there were super detailed, highly exact, rules for these aren't you at the whim of the DM as to whether or not you can use them anyway? It doesn't matter if it's a basic system or a detailed one, if the DM isn't in the mood for it then it doesn't happen. Unless you concede that if it's in print then it must be followed. And there are some players that strongly feel this way, so not having it in the book is a failure for them. For myself and many others it's a huge success.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Of course this issue is not only a 5e issue. Also, the rules for running a business are a bit one-dimensional, there should be profitability modifiers for geographic monopolies and such.

I saw what you did there...

 

[Kikuras]

But they didn't just say "uhhh.... Make it up." as many posters like to falsely accuse them of. It's not a highly detailed system but it's there. There's a system for making and buying magic items. There's a system for buying castles and businesses as well. It's all there, but it was purposefully (and not maliciously) kept simple because there are way to many playstyles out there for one system to fit every game. The systems they gave us are starting points. Enough for a game where the DM doesn't want to put in the work and a good starting point for a DM that wants a more detailed system. By keeping it basic it also allows those DMs to customize it to their campaign.

Even if there were super detailed, highly exact, rules for these aren't you at the whim of the DM as to whether or not you can use them anyway? It doesn't matter if it's a basic system or a detailed one, if the DM isn't in the mood for it then it doesn't happen. Unless you concede that if it's in print then it must be followed. And there are some players that strongly feel this way, so not having it in the book is a failure for them. For myself and many others it's a huge success.

I will admit I was a little hyperbolic. And having too much detail could be detrimental, especially with 5e. Still, the whole "buy a castle, buy a ship" thing is old and tired. I'm talking about getting creative. I want my bard to start a cult with him as the leader, and to expand it internationally. Or maybe my wizard wants to buy a whole block of businesses, not just one, or perhaps he wants to invest in a supply chain so that he become the cheese-baron of Yorstrel. Propaganda, bribes, fame, reputation, power, influence, all an intricate web of non-combat play that may or may not mean anything.

Yeah, players are always at the whim of the DM, but isn't there something to be said for having it and not needing, instead of needing it and not having it?

I just feel they could have given just a little more, a few pages hidden in the DMG or something.

 

[Ahrimon]

I will admit I was a little hyperbolic.

No worries, I wasn't pointing at you but rather the folks that are very... passionate, about saying that WotC was lazy about this.

And having too much detail could be detrimental, especially with 5e. Still, the whole "buy a castle, buy a ship" thing is old and tired.

True, but it is the classic staple steeped in DnD history so I would say it's good for the basic example.

I'm talking about getting creative. I want my bard to start a cult with him as the leader, and to expand it internationally. Or maybe my wizard wants to buy a whole block of businesses, not just one, or perhaps he wants to invest in a supply chain so that he become the cheese-baron of Yorstrel. Propaganda, bribes, fame, reputation, power, influence, all an intricate web of non-combat play that may or may not mean anything.

I would love to see more options for these. The first game I get to play in I plan to start a merchant company. But I understand why these options aren't there. It would use a lot of space in the DMG to cover the numerous options. Not to mention how to cover the different styles of game. A feudal Japanese campaign would be very different from a medieval Europe from a viking from a high fantasy type of game.

I'm hoping that we'll get an Unearthed Arcana article or three with more on these options. The more seeds we have for us as DMs the better.

Yeah, players are always at the whim of the DM, but isn't there something to be said for having it and not needing, instead of needing it and not having it?

I just feel they could have given just a little more, a few pages hidden in the DMG or something.

I wouldn't have complained if it was there, but I do understand that they had to make the tough call about how much of what to include.

Happy Gaming!

 

[Salthorae]

But they didn't just say "uhhh.... Make it up." as many posters like to falsely accuse them of. It's not a highly detailed system but it's there. There's a system for making and buying magic items. There's a system for buying castles and businesses as well. It's all there, but it was purposefully (and not maliciously) kept simple because there are way to many playstyles out there for one system to fit every game. The systems they gave us are starting points. Enough for a game where the DM doesn't want to put in the work and a good starting point for a DM that wants a more detailed system. By keeping it basic it also allows those DMs to customize it to their campaign.

Even if there were super detailed, highly exact, rules for these aren't you at the whim of the DM as to whether or not you can use them anyway? It doesn't matter if it's a basic system or a detailed one, if the DM isn't in the mood for it then it doesn't happen. Unless you concede that if it's in print then it must be followed. And there are some players that strongly feel this way, so not having it in the book is a failure for them. For myself and many others it's a huge success.

That's what I don't get either. it's not the most detailed system, but it's at least 80-85% of what a DM needs to enable a magic item buying/selling system in their own world. It even has rules for locating buyers, what they'll pay

 

[MoonSong]

most of this thread seemed like a digression on the OP and I stopped about page 12...

my 9th level character in a 5e game has spent over half of his wealth on buying a furnishing a large 2 story town home in the capital city and spends 150 gp/month on his staff and upkeep. He gave 600 gp to an NPC friend who wants to start and open a library. He went in with the other PC's to refurbish a keep they gained title to through adventures and now they are starting to pay maintenance and salaries for the guardsmen, etc who live there full time.

There is a ton of stuff to do with gold even without purchasing magic items.

I love this change with 5e, characters are more important than the stuff they can get their grubby hands on...

This is perfectly good, when you are on a sandbox, but with other kind of games there's just no time to indulge in mini-quests on demand without straining verisimilitude. And keeping track of that many pennies takes time away from the actual roleplaying.

That's awesome and I'm very glad of the systemic changes that have helped to immerse the characters in the game. I'm looking forward to actually playing and having a character involved in the world.

That said, I do understand that there are folks out there who want kick in the door dungeon delving style of game. I believe it's called a beer and pretzel game. They're not interested in anything outside of the dungeon and play DnD as more of an action game. There's nothing wrong with this, the game mostly supports it, and I hope they all have great games. 5e does put the ball in the DMs court for things to spend gold on for this style of game. I can understand why these players and DMs would be a little frustrated that they weren't given everything in one package, but I can't understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth from some people here. I'm sorry if the game didn't give you everything you need without any input from you, but it did give you everything you need with a little bit of work. To these folks I would like to say, don't sweat the small stuff. So what if your home pricing system isn't 100% balanced. Go with it and adjust as needed. You don't need everything spelled out to have a great game. Embrace what you have, make up the rest, and have fun with your friends.

For those who say they don't have time, I just can't see it. I manage 60 people at work and have two kids and a wife at home and can still find time to make up campaign details. You may have to sacrifice some XBox/Netflix/PS4/Game of Thrones time to make it work, but if you really want those details it shouldn't be a problem.

You don't need real state in order to immerse the players into the world, like I said I want to allow my players to buy magic items, but that has nothing to do with the kind of scenarios we play, out of the three games I'm running, only one features dungeons, and it is the only one where I'm going to stick to the magic items as treasure. The other two are story-based but player driven.

As for time, way to assume I even have one of those last-gen consoles, all I have in hand is an old xbox my brother gave me when he moved out, and I mostly use it as a DVD-player when I have time and feel like it. One thing is to dedicate time to develop a world and a consistent story and prep for the games. One very different is to invent a system from scratch.

But they didn't just say "uhhh.... Make it up." as many posters like to falsely accuse them of. It's not a highly detailed system but it's there. There's a system for making and buying magic items. There's a system for buying castles and businesses as well. It's all there, but it was purposefully (and not maliciously) kept simple because there are way to many playstyles out there for one system to fit every game. The systems they gave us are starting points. Enough for a game where the DM doesn't want to put in the work and a good starting point for a DM that wants a more detailed system. By keeping it basic it also allows those DMs to customize it to their campaign.

Even if there were super detailed, highly exact, rules for these aren't you at the whim of the DM as to whether or not you can use them anyway? It doesn't matter if it's a basic system or a detailed one, if the DM isn't in the mood for it then it doesn't happen. Unless you concede that if it's in print then it must be followed. And there are some players that strongly feel this way, so not having it in the book is a failure for them. For myself and many others it's a huge success.

It is only for making and selling MIs, not for buying them. The problem I have with them is they are extremely fiat based, and I don't have the time nor the will to micromanage my players in that regard and in that scale.

That's what I don't get either. it's not the most detailed system, but it's at least 80-85% of what a DM needs to enable a magic item buying/selling system in their own world. It even has rules for locating buyers, what they'll pay

But they say nothing about how much those items are equivalent and how equal players will be with them in their hands, because the point of allowing them to buy magic items is so they can enjoy them, not to make one of them more powerful than the others, if a dose of sovereign glue is way more expensive than a tome of clear thought, the player going for the first is not going to be equivalent to the later, and that is not fair.

 

[Derren]

There seems to be a sub-concern of the original postulation that has turned a lot of this thread into a debate about magic items. Personally I don't care about magic items and how they appear in 5e. The problem I have is that I can think of a dozen creative things to do with my gold, as a PC, yet the best WotC was able to do, for the most part, is "Uhhh.... Make it up."

Making it up is fine, if the DM is willing to, but without some more solid basic rules for DMs and players to use, pretty much the whole thing comes down to whether or not your DM is in the mood for it. We have to remember that the published rules are out there to establish a baseline for the lowest common denominator, and we cannot assume that our personal willingness as a DM is representative of what the average layer will face.

Of course this issue is not only a 5e issue. Also, the rules for running a business are a bit one-dimensional, there should be profitability modifiers for geographic monopolies and such.

"Uhhh.... Make it up." is pretty much the catchphrase for 5E.
Its especially noticeable with ships and strongholds. When WotC noticed that gold was useless they threw in those big ticket items. But how do they integrate into the game world best? "Uhhh.... Make it up, we don't care, give us money."

 

[Salthorae]

"Uhhh.... Make it up." is pretty much the catchphrase for 5E.
Its especially noticeable with ships and strongholds. When WotC noticed that gold was useless they threw in those big ticket items. But how do they integrate into the game world best? "Uhhh.... Make it up, we don't care, give us money."

Isn't making it up the point of PnP role playing?

I love the changes and gaps in the rules because it begs people to role play rather than emulate a CRPG with getting power ups. It begs DMs to put a little bit of work into their games, to flesh out the world around the PC's rather than just having a fall back of "here's another magic item shop"...

 

[Hussar]

"Uhhh.... Make it up." is pretty much the catchphrase for 5E.
Its especially noticeable with ships and strongholds. When WotC noticed that gold was useless they threw in those big ticket items. But how do they integrate into the game world best? "Uhhh.... Make it up, we don't care, give us money."

Ok, I'll bite.

What non-setting specific mechanics could they have added to the castle building mechanics that would satisfy you? Note, it must be non-setting specific because if it is setting specific, then we get into the complaints that WOTC is telling people how to play the game. Building a castle in one setting is quite different from another after all.

So, what mechanics would make you happy