D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Shasarak]

No one said you did. As Hussar said, it could be the internet... Or it could be a phone book. Some sort of information transmission system that goes beyond putting your sign up above the door.

Except that, contrary to what Hussar said, people can and do advertise without newspapers, telephones and the internet.

Especially in DnD where, with magic, you can have a 101 different ways of getting word out there ranging from hiring a Bard to spread the word around town all the way to summoning an Air Elemental to write your message in the Sky.

 

[Wicht]

Secondly, to alliviate the problem of "copious amounts of gold" you use that wonderful tool of the market: the invisible hand. Specifically, A PC wandering into town with a +1 sword to sell for a million gold is going to be laughed out of town. Rarity (+1 weapons are uncommon; meaning they aren't Excalibur) need (does a noble really need a magic sword?), and opportunity cost (what's worth more: a +1 sword or a legion of troops) are both going to set the price FAR lower than the millions a PC asks for..

I also think the bolded part worth commenting upon. Values of luxury items are rarely ever about "need." Who "needs" a Lamborghini or a Rolls? Who "needs" a Van Gogh or a Rembrandt? Who "needs" to own the Pink Panther, or the Great Star of Africa? Even when addressing hobbies or mundane gear, need rarely determines desire. Who really "needed" a 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons? Why does a hunter with four perfectly good rifles at home "need" a new gun, or a new scope? If I have four perfectly good wooden spoons in the kitchen, why is the shiny new spoon with the nifty handle going to catch my eye? Why am I tempted by a new pocket knife even if I have my favorite knife in my pocket? Sure there might be something more practical to buy, but practicality often loses to other impulses.

You ask the average noble in a fantasy world if he wants to buy a magic sword, and assuming he has the money, I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be yes, even if it is just to hang said sword on the wall of his bedroom next to the other five he already owns.

 

[Wicht]

And here is how fixed prices screw up the system. Lets say your PC acquires 5,000 gp. He goes to Waterdeep* (or sufficiently large city) and hits the bazaar to buy a +1 amulet of natural armor, a +1 sword, and a +1 cloak of resistance. (The three items are a few hundred over 5k, and the PC can afford it all). However, he goes to the magic sword vendor and the vendor says "Well, there's a war going on near Neverwinter, so +1 swords a 4k each".

The PC is now Angry. He knows the DM is overcharging him, and that "by the rules, he can get the amulet too" since the price for a sword is set. Furthermore, the DM is watering him down for his Wealth Per Level guide since he's effectively stealing 2k away form his proper reward.

That's a player issue, not a rules issue. The prices and the wealth per level guides are just that: guides. DM can charge whatever he wants. I do it all the time and never have angry players.

However, if the price is a range, the PC can't call the DM for overcharging him since there is no set price. He doesn't like it, don't buy it.

But if the range is overly broad, it does become useless, does it not?

As I said, a few items bought and sold using the DMG guidelines and some common sense economics is enough for me. Picasso's are sold everyday; neither are magic items. What I don't want is the 3e system of expected wealth and PCs with carts of cloaks of resistances (needed to keep NPC math going) and going into town to sell for 500 gp a pop so they can add another plus to their +1 flaming, keen bastard sword. Those days are gone and good riddance!

You are describing a game style problem, not a rules problem. As I said, fixed prices are no more subject to abuse than unfixed prices.

indeed, to an inexperienced DM, the unfixed prices might actually lead to worse scenarios than you are describing.

Also,...

Pathfinder Core, page 140, Equipment: “The equipment presented here should be relatively easy to find and purchase in most towns and cities, although GMs might wish to restrict the availability of some of the more expensive and exotic items. Magic items are much more difficult to purchase.”

Pathfinder Core, page 460, Magic Items: “Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.”

ibid.: “If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all.”

ibid.: “These items should follow the base value guidelines to determine their availability, subject to GM discretion.”
emphasis added

The idea that a player can just walk into any town or city and buy whatever he wants under Pathfinder rules, or any 3e iteration is not actually an idea supported by the rules.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Except that, contrary to what Hussar said, people can and do advertise without newspapers, telephones and the internet.

Especially in DnD where, with magic, you can have a 101 different ways of getting word out there ranging from hiring a Bard to spread the word around town all the way to summoning an Air Elemental to write your message in the Sky.

Not what he said.
Hussar's words were:

I mean, how many of you could find someone who was selling a Lambourgini without using the Internet or a phone book? Purely through word of mouth, could you find someone selling a Lambo? it's not like they're that rare. There are tens of thousands of Lambo's out there on the roads. But, without modern resources like telephones, newspapers and the Internet, could you find someone willing to sell you one?

The point being that selling something expensive and made in runs of hundreds (for a given model), distributed worldwide will require an investment in time and money on the part of the seller and buyer. Word of mouth can be powerful, but it is slow, and it is incredibly inefficient advertising for selling something quickly, becoming less efficient as the price of the commodity rises.

Going back to D&D, your idea of advertising using a sky-writing Air Elemental isn't free. Summoning and controlling it imposes time and money costs. And if nobody bites- nobody looked up nobody I n town is interested, no one can come close to meeting your price, etc.- you need to repeat the process somewhere else. That means YOU or your agent will have to travel to the new location and try the sky-writing thing again.

Which imposes not only the real costs of doing so, but if you're the one doing the traveling, imposes the opportunity cost of missing out on a sale if a wealthy merchant passes through town in your absence...

 

[Shasarak]

Not what he said.
Hussar's words were:


The point being that selling something expensive and made in runs of hundreds (for a given model), distributed worldwide will require an investment in time and money on the part of the seller and buyer. Word of mouth can be powerful, but it is slow, and it is incredibly inefficient advertising for selling something quickly, becoming less efficient as the price of the commodity rises.

Going back to D&D, your idea of advertising using a sky-writing Air Elemental isn't free. Summoning and controlling it imposes time and money costs. And if nobody bites- nobody looked up nobody I n town is interested, no one can come close to meeting your price, etc.- you need to repeat the process somewhere else. That means YOU or your agent will have to travel to the new location and try the sky-writing thing again.

Which imposes not only the real costs of doing so, but if you're the one doing the traveling, imposes the opportunity cost of missing out on a sale if a wealthy merchant passes through town in your absence...

Did any one say that advertising was free?

Even advertising on the Internet is not free.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To clarify: using magic to sell magic is no different than using modern advertising to sell modern goods.

The same issues of information, time, location and monetary costs have to be addressed. And the rarer & more valuable the commodity being sold, the more those issues will be a factor.

 

[Jester David]

Still slogging through page 15, so this might have already been addressed but its worth making something of an issue of...

The idea that magic is not and cannot be for sale is fundamentally flawed because it ignores a very important variable: the players. Sure magic might not be commonly for sale, but what do you do if the PCs find a magic item they don't want and decide to sell it... are you really going to convince them there are no buyers? Or what if the wizard wants to explore the idea of selling continual flames - who is to stop him?

In my experience, my most magic-item heavy games were not actually under 3rd edition, but under 2nd edition when there was no way in the adventure for the adventurers to get rid of the copious amounts of magical gear they were finding at around 7th-10th level. Everything was gleefully kept. (and the problem was made worse when I was sharing DM duties and not fully in control myself of what was being handed out). Players being able to sell some of their magic items is sometimes a good thing.

It's a matter of scale. Magic items can be bought and sold without there being a full magic item economy. In much the same way one can buy or sell a Rembrandt without there being an entire sub-economy built around trading renaissance art and exact copies of all of his paintings being available in every town.

Some of this depends on how the PCs (and thus adventurers or people with class levels) are perceived, which is a bit of worldbuilding. The party might be unique in their role as adventurers, or one of a small handful of legendary parties, or just another group of delvers that are as common as dirt. Are there lots of adventurers running around discovering magical gear and trying to unload the surplus or it a singular group unearthing previously unseen items? The value of the items and ease of selling will vary greatly.

 

[Derren]

It's a matter of scale. Magic items can be bought and sold without there being a full magic item economy. In much the same way one can buy or sell a Rembrandt without there being an entire sub-economy built around trading renaissance art and exact copies of all of his paintings being available in every town.

Some of this depends on how the PCs (and thus adventurers or people with class levels) are perceived, which is a bit of worldbuilding. The party might be unique in their role as adventurers, or one of a small handful of legendary parties, or just another group of delvers that are as common as dirt. Are there lots of adventurers running around discovering magical gear and trying to unload the surplus or it a singular group unearthing previously unseen items? The value of the items and ease of selling will vary greatly.

I am pretty sure that there is a large and active market for renaissance art. Sure, big items like Rembrandts are traded rarely (but they are occasionally auctioned) but those are the +5 vorpal holy avengers. "Lesser" art from more unknown artists are traded every day and good art trades can likely put you into contact with someone who will sell renaissance art if they do not do it themselves.

And even if you assume that the knowledge of how the create magic item has been universally lost and no known place on the planet knows how to create them, there would still be a market for continual flame torches. Every noble would want to stock his residence with it and why shouldn't he? Or is the party wizard the only one able to cast 2nd level spells?

 

[Hussar]

You do not need resources like telephones, newspapers or the Internet to run a Lamborghini shop or to go and buy a Lamborghini from a Lamborghini shop.

So, we're back to Magic Marts then?

Advertising- of any kind- incurs added cost. A cost either affects the price or the profit margin.

Plus, to point out the other side of this, just because you want a Lambo, doesn't mean there's one to be had where you are at a price you can afford to pay. Further, there are cars in this world so exclusive that you won't be allowed to buy one unless the maker invites you to be a purchaser.



Side note: after declining in price due to regular depreciation for years, the "Poster Cars" of the 1980s-1990s are RISING in price right now due to increased demand by collectors and people indulging their inner 12 year olds.

And thus my point. Buying a magic item is like buying a Lambo. It's difficult to do, extremely expensive and, lacking mass communication methods, practically impossible to do.

 

[Derren]

And thus my point. Buying a magic item is like buying a Lambo. It's difficult to do, extremely expensive and, lacking mass communication methods, practically impossible to do.

And yet even during the dark ages expensive items got traded back and forth or commissioned without mass communication. So no, it is not impossible at all.