D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[MoonSong]

Yup, those that want the price list have to do some leg work. True. The 5e DMG does include some guidelines, but, they're pretty basic. Then again, what's stopping you form using the 3e price lists? Last I checked, the Hypertext SRD was still going, so, those price lists are still completely accessible. Why can't you use those? It's not like price lists don't exist anywhere.

Because the 3.x lists weren't that good in the first place, and what was broken in 3e is not necessarily broken in 5e too.

I would say it was faulty even within its system since it led to the Big 6. Moreover, it would also have been faulty from individual campaign to individual campaign given varying play styles. I think it may be better, at this point, to have broad ranges and not sweat it too much.

Those broad ranges help me nothing to keep my players in the same page. I could live without a fixed price, but I need a better way to weight relative utility, not arbitrary categories that say nothing about relative utility and are influenced .

 

[Riley37]

My concern is for easily available, fixed price, and commonly assumed magic item acquisition via gold pieces.

+1 to that.

"And here is how fixed prices screw up the system. Lets say your PC acquires 5,000 gp. He goes to Waterdeep* (or sufficiently large city) and hits the bazaar to buy a +1 amulet of natural armor, a +1 sword, and a +1 cloak of resistance. (The three items are a few hundred over 5k, and the PC can afford it all). However, he goes to the magic sword vendor and the vendor says "Well, there's a war going on near Neverwinter, so +1 swords a 4k each".

The PC is now Angry. He knows the DM is overcharging him, and that "by the rules, he can get the amulet too" since the price for a sword is set. Furthermore, the DM is watering him down for his Wealth Per Level guide since he's effectively stealing 2k away form his proper reward."

I have a disagreement with this. The PC might be angry at the shopkeeper, but should not be angry at the DM. The player might be angry at the DM. The DM is not overcharging the player; the DM doesn't actually have gold coins OR magic swords. The shopkeeper is arguably overcharging the PC, but ya know, if there ARE people (NPCs) offering the shopkeeper 4K GP or more for a +1 sword, then I don't think that the shopkeeper is acting unethically or abusively, in refusing to sell at 2K GP.

If the PC throws a tantrum, kills the shopkeeper, and leaves the store carrying the +1 sword and also all the store's remaining inventory, then that's a decision which should be played out, possibly with other consequences further down the timeline.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

However, if you treat ALL prices realistically, by the time they have enough scratch to buy magic items, they will be used to the printed prices being guidelines only, and the risk of merchanticide drops significantly.

 

[Riley37]

I would say it was faulty even within its system since it led to the Big 6.

I question the simplicity of that chain of causality.
There are several other TRPGs. Do they have the Big Six? That is, do players gravitate towards similar go-to items?

I argued, earlier, that CRPG such as Nethack (as an early example) or Elder Scrolls (more widespread) had significant influence on TRPGs. The degree of that influence is debatable, as is the degree of interplay (eg a 1983 CRPG influencing a 1985 TRPG module which then influences a 1987 CRPG). I'm confident that it's nonzero.

People who play lots of Nethack tend to work towards the standard "Ascension Kit", which is a lot like the Big Six: a strong weapon (usually a named sword), dragon scale mail armor (usually grey or silver), a Bag of Holding, a unicorn horn, a blessed luckstone, a cloak or robe, speed boots or jumping boots, and amulet of life saving or reflection. (Fellow nethackers, we both know this is a hand-waved summary, okay?)

The names and parameters of those items were of course influenced by D&D. The efforts players will go to, to collect at least the basics of an Ascension Kit before they attack the Wizard of Yendor, are determined more by variation and selection; that is, those who gather an Ascension Kit are MUCH more likely to survive all the way to the altars on the Astral Plane.

There is guaranteed to be at least one shop, and it's guaranteed to sell nonmagical candles. Other than that... you MIGHT find other stores and they MIGHT sell enchanted items, but maybe not. You can (if you do the necessary tasks) wish at least one of those items into existence (and, more likely, many of them). And yet, ascenders tend to converge on something fairly close to a "standard" ascension kit.

Not because of 3E or 3.5E or 4E or Pathfinder. But because, well, that's what tends to work, within a game which hasn't changed much since 1989, and not at all (bar graphics options) since 2003.

Sometimes what players find most effective isn't necessarily what the game designers intended or expected.

 

[Riley37]

However, if you treat ALL prices realistically, by the time they have enough scratch to buy magic items, they will be used to the printed prices being guidelines only, and the risk of merchanticide drops significantly.

Well, yes. The PHB has a listed cost, 10 GP, for a cow or a square yard of silk. <sarcasm> Because the amount of gold you can get by selling a cow or a square yard of silk has been constant, in all locations, across all of human history.</sarcasm>

***
Terminator: The .45 long slide, with laser sighting.
Clerk: These are brand new - we just got them in. That's a good gun. Just touch the trigger, the beam comes on and you put the red dot where you want the bullet to go. You can't miss. Anything else?
Terminator: Phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.
Clerk: Hey, just what you see pal.
Terminator: The Uzi nine millimeter.
Clerk: You know your weapons, buddy. Any one of these is ideal for home defense. So uh, which will it be?
***
Perhaps the Terminator was angry that the phased plasma rifle was not available at the cost listed in the rulesbook?
Just as a certain participant in this thread might be angry if their PC could not buy a musket for 500 GP, the cost as listed on DMG p.268?
***

Here's another angle.
For purposes of argument (stipulating imperfection), let's divide D&D play into some rough categories:

(B) Events played out in close detail and with many die rolls, such as round-by-round combats.
(C) Events played out in close detail and with few or no die rolls, such as long discussions held entirely in-character.
(Genre example: the Council of Elrond.)
(D) Events played out with less detail, and few or no die rolls. For example, learning a language, using the downtime rules. Got 250 days and 250 GP? Add Elvish language proficiency to your list of abilities. DM determines how long it takes, might require some INT checks, but if a fellow PC knows Elvish and their player declares that they'll teach, then Bob's your uncle.
(F) Events played out using NONE of the DM's time and attention, decided solely by a player, within a standing agreement or honor system. For example, using downtime to recuperate (PHB p.187). No DM decisions are necessary. Alternatively, using GP which the PC has in their purse, to buy mundane, widely available items, such as lamp oil or re-stocking their supply of (normal) crossbow bolts. As a DM, I would rather trust players to just do that stuff on their own, when the PC is in a major city between adventures. It's not worth even a second of DM-player consultation.
(G) Puns, lewd innuendos, Shakespeare quotes (wait, that's redundant), etc., which don't affect the PCs.

I don't want buying a +1 sword, *at my table*, to happen in category (F), unless the setting is magic-rich. Buying healing potions and scrolls of Lesser Restoration MIGHT be in category (F), depending on setting and on location within setting, but if a PC buys a dozen potions of healing, they might well have bought out the entire locally available supply, which means that another PC can't also buy a dozen PoH in the same city on the same day. So it's more category (D); my answer is likely to be yes, bar scenarios such as "Your elven wizard buddy bought all my PoH yesterday, try again when I've brewed another batch".

I'll never run a game in which buying an Ollamh Harp or the Apparatus of Kwalish is category (F). "Wait, you bought the Apparatus yesterday? So did I! Well, that's redundant. Hey DM, actually I bought a Deck of Many Things instead."

I also don't want PCs to sell a Staff of Power as a category (F) action. There are rules on DMG p.130 for selling magic items, but I don't want players scratching the Staff of Power off their possessions list, rolling on the Magic Item Sales Table, and converting it to 75K GP, without first asking the DM.

Some NPC now has a Staff of Power? That might influence certain story events!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Perhaps the Terminator was angry that the phased plasma rifle was not available at the cost listed in the rulesbook?

Nah, it knew it was gonna steal 'em when it entered. It didn't carry cash!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If the PC throws a tantrum, kills the shopkeeper, and leaves the store carrying the +1 sword and also all the store's remaining inventory, then that's a decision which should be played out, possibly with other consequences further down the timeline.

While it's a bit of an exaggeration, I could see the PC provoking such a situation out of frustration with a DM who is clearly running the game "wrong". From the player's perspective, he's just taking what he deserves, and worst-case-scenario is that the character dies and the player finds another game with a "better" DM who doesn't "cheat".

It's an issue of managing expectations. While the DM can always change anything in the book, the default sets expectations about how things should be. With listed prices, the players have certain expectations about what that means, and they're unlikely to be happy when you break those. Doubly so, when it makes things harder for them.

It's somewhat similar to asking players to roll 3d6 in order for stats. Even if you assure them that you'll take that into account with weaker enemies, it still seems like you're over-stepping your bounds.

 

[billd91]

I question the simplicity of that chain of causality.
There are several other TRPGs. Do they have the Big Six? That is, do players gravitate towards similar go-to items?

<snip>

Not because of 3E or 3.5E or 4E or Pathfinder. But because, well, that's what tends to work, within a game which hasn't changed much since 1989, and not at all (bar graphics options) since 2003.

Oh, there was always some desire to collect a set of certain items - armor class, weapon, ring or cloak of protection, girdle of giant strength or gloves of dexterity, and so on. The difference was that other items weren't readily fungible into the desired items. The strategy of getting those items couldn't really be pursued rationally with the expectation of getting them. Then along came 3e with easy item creation/buying and suddenly, you could do just that. And for good value too. After all, why would you keep a ring of shooting stars with its conditional use, relatively minor effects when, if you had Forge Ring, you could turn its 50,000 gp price into a similarly priced ring of protection +5? Other price comparisons (wand of cure light wounds vs any other wand of cure wounds or even potions, for example) led to too many other dominating strategies.

Ultimately, the prices were supposed to be compared and set based on relative utility, but it's highly unlikely a ring of shooting stars is going to generate the same utility as a ring of protection +5. And that's part of the problem with the Big 6 - too much bang for the buck compared to other quirkier or more interesting items. 1e and 2e, both quite contemporary with Netback and it's Rogue predecessor, didn't suffer the same issues 3e did - so I really doubt the influence of those games were a significant driver of Big 6 issues.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I question the simplicity of that chain of causality.
There are several other TRPGs. Do they have the Big Six? That is, do players gravitate towards similar go-to items?

I'm not familiar with many TRPGs where wealth is a significant growth mechanic for characters. D&D 3E and 4E are kind of unique in that respect, from what I can tell.

Shadowrun has listed prices for items, and I know that there are some items that people tend to buy whenever possible (Smartlink and a Suprathyroid Gland), but the game lacks codified classes or an expected wealth progression, so it's not a direct comparison.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's somewhat similar to asking players to roll 3d6 in order for stats. Even if you assure them that you'll take that into account with weaker enemies, it still seems like you're over-stepping your bounds.

How? If it is one of the official methods of ChaGen in a game, and everyone uses the same system, how is that overstepping bounds?