D&D 5E (2014) What's the point of gold?

[Riley37]

Ping me when we're back to ideas which help me run better D&D.

 

[Riley37]

How many Meteor Swarms does it take to kill 100 hobgoblins before they can shoot you full of 100 arrows? How will you deal with the second hundred hobgoblins half a mile away?

...why are you mentioning Meteor Swarm? I was using "AoE" as an acronym for "Area of Effect", not for "Meteor Swarm".

If you are not aware of AoE spells other than Meteor Swarm, check your PHB, or the Basic Rules. I particularly recommend Moonbeam, a second-level spell which can be used to mow down large numbers of goblins, shining the Spotlight of Pain across concentrated targets, round after round. Also Chain Lightning at third level. As for avoiding arrows, there's a variety of methods, including a variety of methods to avoid being seen and targeted at all.

One method for dealing with the second hundred hobgoblins: "Consider how long it took me to kill the first hundred hobgoblins, and how much harm I took in the process. If you fire any arrows at me, what do you think will happen, and is that what you want? I bet we could figure out a better outcome for both of us."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

...why are you mentioning Meteor Swarm? I was using "AoE" as an acronym for "Area of Effect", not for "Meteor Swarm".

Because in the context of "AoE spells trivialize encounters with hundreds of hobgoblins", it seemed more intellectually honest (not to mention more courteous) to assume you were making a strong argument and respond to that, rather than assume you were making a specious argument about Fireball spells trivializing such an encounter. Meteor Swarm has a range of up to 1 mile and produces four 40-yard radius spheres of death; according to DMG rules that will kill about 32 hobgoblins out of 100, possibly more if they are tightly-packed. I can even imagine cases where you'd get all 100 hobgoblins if you catch them by surprise, thus "trivializing" the encounter. Therefore I responded to that. It's not even worth talking about Moonbeam or Chain Lightning ("I won initiative and killed 4 hobgoblins with a 6th level spell! Yay! And so did all of my party mates! Now we only have to survive 84 arrows to the face instead of 100!" Edit: N.b. Chain lightning is 6th level, not 3rd.).

Yes, you can win. The game is designed to be winnable. But AoE spells don't trivialize those encounters. They do play a role in winning them, but you have to play other cards too or you'll lose.

 

[Belisarius76]

Diamonds are also one of the better non-stick surfaces in the world.

Gold's ductility- it can be worked in to sheets mere molecules thick using bronze-age technology- has been valued for thousands of years.

And that engagement ring? Well, as someone who buys a lot of them second hand, I can say they DO retain a value in the aftermarket. Even the crappy ones are worth...well...their weight in gold.




FWIW...

exactly

 

[Belisarius76]

An engagement ring on the other hand, is bought for obligation and bears no resell value, at all.

If it's 9 karat gold ring it may not lol. However jewellery you usually get your money back. My mother's engagement and wedding rings we re valued recently and are far in excess of what they paid, even in terms of inflation factored in. Gold has never ever lost value if you look at charts going back to the early 1900s, it has gradually appreciated, along with silver.
Point is, in a D&D game, how much gold and silver floating around is a good thing vs risk, vs factors in how much in circulation based on supply from mines etc. Giving PCs tonnes of treasure and making it exceedingly easy to arm themselves to the teeth early is not good for game balance imao, you want them to feel like it would be a struggle and for them to be alert. Not just rock up and easily annihilate everything, there is never any fun in that. Good heavy armour (or any exceptionally made armour) and weapons, like Adamantine/Mithril should be near impossible to obtain, along with swathes of gold and platinum etc. Not unless they take out a Dragon or the like who would have accumulated that treasure over centuries.

 

[Mirtek]

The worth of gold and diamonds as jewelry in modern days is almost entirely down to intensive advertising campaigns designed to increase desire for something that is neither as rare nor intrinsically valuable as people think.

Actually gold is pretty rare: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21969100

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

He has a point about diamonds, though.


DeBeers' cartel is essentially toothless at this point. They're still in charge largely because tight supply keeps the other suppliers happy. Besides sizable deposits being found in Australia, Canada and the US, Russia has a ridiculous stockpile. Like, enough to crash the diamond market.

At least, that's what the Russians strongly implied in 60 Minutes and other outlets when they were struggling to buy wheat and South Africa was blocking their efforts to finance their purchases. DeBeers was scared enough of what they were saying and showing that they pressured the government to relent.

But even though diamonds are not as rare as diamond sellers would like you to believe, they're still pretty rare. And the fancy colored ones- red, blue, pink, yellow- are about as rare as it gets.

 

[Riley37]

Chain Lightning ("I won initiative and killed 4 hobgoblins with a 6th level spell! Yay! And so did all of my party mates! Now we only have to survive 84 arrows to the face instead of 100!" Edit: N.b. Chain lightning is 6th level, not 3rd.).

So it is. My mistake, I meant Call Lightning, which is third level. AoE *instant* spells aren't the tool for the job. AoE *duration* spells are the better artillery equivalent.

If, for some reason, a) you're in a situation in which all 100 of them can fire directly at you (which means you're not properly using all your sensory and mobility advantages), and b) the occasional hits are somehow more than a curable annoyance despite your False Life, your paladin buddy's Aura of Vitality, etc., then use Hunger of Hadar instead. Their first rank isn't gonna deliver aimed arrow fire from within it, nor can the ranks behind them, since it blocks LOS. Follow up with cantrips, because the side with infinite ammo has an advantage in a battle of attrition by mutual blind fire.

It's not just the hobgoblins you can zap *on the first round*. It's how many every round, for the spell's duration, and the morale effect. Moonbeam, Call Lightning and Hunger of Hadar are *at least* as terrifying as a modern mortar barrage. When you incinerate 10% of an attacking force, the remaining 90% notice. Units which keep attacking after 25% casualties are notably stubborn. If you were hobgoblin #26, in a force which numbered 100 a minute ago and is now down to 75... would you feel lucky?

Sure, you play your other cards too. Your AoE-Duration spells prevent them from using close formation, and thus your warrior allies can mop them up in detail, and so forth. AoE-Duration spells are still game-changers against horde foes which can't survive 2d10 damage; much more so than Wild Shape, Action Surge, Sneak Attack, etc.

 

[Riley37]

For what it's worth, Rich Burlew's excellent cartoon "Order of the Stick" has a recent episode, "Hard Sell", involving people who sell high-end items, and adventurers buying those items.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So it is. My mistake, I meant Call Lightning, which is third level. AoE *instant* spells aren't the tool for the job. AoE *duration* spells are the better artillery equivalent.

If, for some reason, a) you're in a situation in which all 100 of them can fire directly at you (which means you're not properly using all your sensory and mobility advantages), and b) the occasional hits are somehow more than a curable annoyance despite your False Life, your paladin buddy's Aura of Vitality, etc., then use Hunger of Hadar instead. Their first rank isn't gonna deliver aimed arrow fire from within it, nor can the ranks behind them, since it blocks LOS. Follow up with cantrips, because the side with infinite ammo has an advantage in a battle of attrition by mutual blind fire.

It's not just the hobgoblins you can zap *on the first round*. It's how many every round, for the spell's duration, and the morale effect. Moonbeam, Call Lightning and Hunger of Hadar are *at least* as terrifying as a modern mortar barrage. When you incinerate 10% of an attacking force, the remaining 90% notice. Units which keep attacking after 25% casualties are notably stubborn. If you were hobgoblin #26, in a force which numbered 100 a minute ago and is now down to 75... would you feel lucky?

Sure, you play your other cards too. Your AoE-Duration spells prevent them from using close formation, and thus your warrior allies can mop them up in detail, and so forth. AoE-Duration spells are still game-changers against horde foes which can't survive 2d10 damage; much more so than Wild Shape, Action Surge, Sneak Attack, etc.

Look. I don't really disagree with any of the above, except that I think that in case (a), (b) is guaranteed to occur (False Life doesn't really help against 80 to 227 HP of damage per round, and Aura of Vitality is just a drop in the bucket). But I generally agree with the tactics suggested. However, I don't agree that that constitutes "trivialization" of the encounter. It makes it a regular encounter where good planning and good tactics and good use of terrain result in victory, possibly even a victory at little cost to the PCs. The original claim was that you can't use hobgoblins at high levels because AoE spells trivialize the encounters, and that claim has been thoroughly debunked by subsequent discussion including your recent post.

"Quantity has a quality of its own."