What's the problem with railroading?

Safe to say opinions on the matter vary.

I would argue that railroading is only usefully defined at the point when the players say it's a problem.

If you take an alternate view that railroading describes a type of planning, or GM style or certain opaque tricks a GM can pull, I think you're still left in the situation where you can only say it's a problem when the specific players in that game say its a problem.

If any group wants to happily play along with minimal choice or impact on the game world (not saying that's your game btw), that's entirely up to them.
 

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Hello Dodavehu once again,

And expanding on my previous post, the response below is why there tends to be so much confusion and angst about this topic.

Railroading as such isn´t good or bad, neither is the perceived counter-point, the sandbox.

As long as it has been communicated that it´s gonna be a railroad and everyone involved knows what it means, there´s hoing to be a good time.
The above confuses a "railroad" with a DM directed campaign that the players react to.

And then follows the anger created by this confusion when:

Coldwyn said:
Forex, if I tell everyone at start that we´re hoing to play a Paizo AP, then wellcome aboard the train, enjoy the wild story and fantastic vistas...
The problem here is that a Paizo AP is not a railroad as such. Player input is important even though there is an expected destination (whether the players get there by walking, car, bus or train and whatever route is up to them and the GM). However, the quoted comment is possibly going to offend people who don't view such things as a railroad. (A "railroad" usually being a derogatory term in that context even though the above poster didn't quite mean it as such). Confusion is followed by anger which is followed by flames and then closed threads.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

...I think it looks like a big deal, and we have arguments about it, because some posters like to speak as if they know what most or all other gamers like.
And this is the third part of things described by Umbran where a person with a preference for one or the other starts degrading the DM directed or Player directed style as if one is better/more pure than the other when both flavours are valid.

And as Umbran says... hey this is the internet.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

@Herremann

The term "railroading" has been thrown around, poisoned, used as a dumping ground for negative experinceses and diluted so much, it ceased to have an inherrent meaning.

So I use it in it´s boradest term as "I chose my destination" vs "My destinated has been chosen for me".
 

@Herremann

The term "railroading" has been thrown around, poisoned, used as a dumping ground for negative experinceses and diluted so much, it ceased to have an inherrent meaning.
I think you will agree though that as commonly used, it has a negative connotation, even if as a term it has been used and abused by the internet masses for a multitude of purposes.

So I use it in it´s boradest term as "I chose my destination" vs "My destinated has been chosen for me".
But for a term that carries such negative baggage, it is most probably best not to use it because either you're going to offend someone you did not mean to or more to the point as you describe above, the term lacks clarity. I think it is better to say what you mean (and as you just did) rather than use a negative term neutrally and hope that people understand you.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

It also confuses the issue that some people think that illusionism and railroading are wedded at the hip. It's true that a GM running a very railroaded game is more likely to resort to illusionism, than another GM running a very sandbox game. But if you have work done to create the illusion of player choice when no such choice actually exists, then you have illusionism. This can and does happen in some sandbox games.

There are differences between, "my suspension of disbelief is ruined when it appears that I have few allowable choices within the fiction," versus, "I get really ticked when I find out that none of my choices really mattered--that is, weren't real choices."

You can put the second guy on a railroad that has meaningful choices within the railroad, and he may be happy as a clam. With the first guy, you need a railroad camoflagued to not look like a railroad.
 

@Herremann:

You´ve just proven the point that railroading isn´t a bad thing, it just became a loaded term.


Totally Off-Topic, I never cease to marvel how unprecise the english language is.
 


I don't agree that sandboxing and railroading are at two opposite ends of the spectrum - although the issue is complicated by the fact that these are contested notions.

By "railroading" I mean something like what most of the posts here seem to have in mind - a game in which the GM makes most of the choices about how encounters and PC actions will resolve. Maybe the players get to make the local tactical decisions - do we win the fight with a lightning bolt or a great-axe? - but the GM ultimately decides how things unfold. Extreme versions of this are the GM "cheating" to make sure that the upshot of an encounter is what s/he has planned in advance.

By sandboxing I mean an exploration game - the GM has created a world with lots of places and NPCs in it, random encounters to add a certain verisimilitudinous dynamism, and the players get to explore that world using their PCs as their vehicles. The negative stereotype of a sandbox is that given by the OP - the GM describes the tavern, or the city square, in which the PCs find themselves and then asks "So, what do you do next?"

I prefer a game which is neither sandbox nor railroad. The essence of my preferred approach is for the GM to create strong - even compelling - situations, which the players are then free to resolve (using their PCs as vehicles) however they like. The way to make a situation compelling, for a given group of players, is to make sure that it evokes game elements or thematic material that those players are interested in.

One way to do this, and the way I tend to rely on the most, is to exploit PC backgrounds, or aspects of PC personality that have been displayed in prior play. So if there is a cleric of the Raven Queen in the party, then I will tell the players that their PCs notice a statue down an alleyway that looks like a shrine to Orcus. Or if a player has expressed a desire to take the Demonskin Adept paragon path, then I will create situations in which demons, or other abyssal forces, play a prominent role.

Another way to do this is simply to use engaging NPCs. Provided that your players are prepared to buy into some in-character roleplay, then you can get their PCs quite deeply enmeshed in a situation simply by having an NPC speak to them, perhaps lead them somewhere, all the while conversing with them in a way that the players are finding fun at the table.

The following quote from Paul Czege really captures, for me, how I like to GM (although the way he expresses it is a lot more hardcore than my game - I run a pretty laid-back fantasy RPG):

Let me say that I think your "Point A to Point B" way of thinking about scene framing is pretty damn incisive . . .:

There are two points to a scene - Point A, where the PCs start the scene, and Point B, where they end up. Most games let the players control some aspect of Point A, and then railroad the PCs to point B. Good narrativism will reverse that by letting the GM create a compelling Point A, and let the players dictate what Point B is (ie, there is no Point B prior to the scene beginning).​

I think it very effectively exposes, as Ron points out above, that although roleplaying games typically feature scene transition, by "scene framing" we're talking about a subset of scene transition that features a different kind of intentionality. My personal inclination is to call the traditional method "scene extrapolation," because the details of the Point A of scenes initiated using the method are typically arrived at primarily by considering the physics of the game world, what has happened prior to the scene, and the unrevealed actions and aspirations of characters that only the GM knows about.

"Scene framing" is a very different mental process for me. Tim asked if scene transitions were delicate. They aren't. Delicacy is a trait I'd attach to "scene extrapolation," the idea being to make scene initiation seem an outgrowth of prior events, objective, unintentional, non-threatening, but not to the way I've come to frame scenes in games I've run recently. More often than not, the PC's have been geographically separate from each other in the game world. So I go around the room, taking a turn with each player, framing a scene and playing it out. I'm having trouble capturing in dispassionate words what it's like, so I'm going to have to dispense with dispassionate words. By god, when I'm framing scenes, and I'm in the zone, I'm turning a freakin' firehose of adversity and situation on the character. It is not an objective outgrowth of prior events. It's intentional as all get out. We've had a group character session, during which it was my job to find out what the player finds interesting about the character. And I know what I find interesting. I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this. And like Scott's "Point A to Point B" model says, the outcome of the scene is not preconceived.

How does it feel? I suspect it feels like being a guest on a fast-paced political roundtable television program. I think the players probably love it for the adrenaline, but sometimes can't help but breathe a calming sigh when I say "cut."​

My game featuers more "scene extrapolation" then Czege's does (although I probably use hard scene framing more often than a lot of ENworld GMs). But the basic idea - that the GM metagames very heavily by deliberately constructing engaging situations, and then leaves the players to choose how to resolve them - I find quite powerful. It is different from a sandbox, because it is not about the PCs exploring a pre-existing world, but rather the GM presenting a world that is built precisely to engage the players.

I also use some of the other techniques Czege describes, like filling in the details of NPC motivations and other parts of the backstory during the cours of play, in order to keep driving the game forward in an engaging fashion. For me, this is the other key difference from a sandbox. When the players are exploring and engaging with the world, that world is being built on the fly to keep them engaged and keep them on their toes. For me, this is the best way to have a non-railroaded, player driven game that nevertheless is focused on the PCs achieving goals that are meaningful both for them and for their players.
 

In theory, I want to run a pure sandbox of a campaign. I want the PCs to have true freedom -- within the context of the campaign milieu -- to do whatever they wish. In reality, however, I cannot provide them this. I have limited time to prepare materials, and since we play a prep-oriented game (Pathfinder) just "winging it" is not an optimal solution.

This used to cause me all sorts of stress and difficulty. Then, one day, I realized I could have my cake and eat it too, by doing one simple thing: ask them.

Now, shortly (a day or two) after a session ends, assuming the party is at a decision point (i.e. not in the middle of a dungeon or whatever) I ask them to tell me what their next course of action is. They can choose anything they like, but they have to tell me in advance of the next session, so I can use the time window (usually a week or two) to prepare appropriate materials.

It is a compromise. It isn't a true sandbox because I expect the players to stick with whatever they said they were going to do, at least for the 3 or 4 hours we are playing. At the same time, I give them as much choice as is feasible in deciding what they will be doing when we play.

It isn't perfect. I'd rather play for 12 hours at a clip, doing almost everything on the fly like I used to when I was a) 20 years old with no real responsibilities, and b) running AD&D (which is much more wing-it friendly). But, alas, I'm an old man with kids and a wife and a career and a group that would rather play PF than LL. So we do what we can.
 

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