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What's the toughest demon I can spring on 11th level PCs and give them a chance?

Kamard

First Post
So, Shadow-template Fiendwurm 20th level sorcerer it is! It's only, like CR 43.

Ohhhh! There's my problem! All this time I've been reading that CR thing as if a group of four PC's should expect to fight monsters of its CR, ie, 4 11th level PC's fights around a CR 11. When it was supposed to be you add all the levels up, like 4 11th level PC's attack a CR, say, 43 creature!

No wonder all my PC's are alive and prospering in my world! Wow. This is really a revelation for me.

:p

And here I thought you were sane, Wickett...
 

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Victim

First Post
A Balor isn't exactly a level 20 sorcerer with some kind of template, but it can be taken out by level 11 characters. They've got plenty of spells too.
 

zorlag

First Post
Heh

Damn, you're one mean DM, RangerWickett. I use these kind of encounters very rarely, if overused it just starts to feel like players are playing puzzle-game or something. :=)

Z.
 


Well, for the record I was just joking about the fiendwurm part.

Anyway, the game (the finale of my campaign) went kaput for reasons totally unrelated to badguy power level. The fight was great fun, very dramatic, but then my players and I crapped out on the ending. Dang, I hate players who can't be heroic even once in their life, when you go to a lot of effort to give them a chance to be-, heck, even direct events so that from a narrative standpoint it'd be incredibly moving if they finally overcame their own failings and were noble, just for once.

But no, it didn't happen. One of the PCs' father was a knight named Galad, and he was killed 25 years ago by another member of the knighthood named Marinus. Marinus thought Galad had been charmed by a sorceress (in truth Galad and the sorceress were in love), and so Marinus tried to kill the sorceress, but in the fight, the Galad gave his life to save the woman he loved. Classic, tragic case of accidental death, but the PC in question grew up hoping he'd have a chance to take his revenge.

In this last game (we'll ignore the other plot elements, which did go off without a hitch), the PC thinks he finally has a chance to take revenge against Marinus. The main villainess and leader of the bad guys promises the PC a chance at revenge if he'll join their side, and then lures Marinus to them. The PC is at least smart enough to know that he should kill the villainess, since she has her own evil plans, so he plays along. Marinus is brought in, and when he sees the PC, he thinks that he's about to be killed, so he insults him. However, by this time the PC has lulled the villainess into a sense of security, and when he's supposed to kill Marinus, instead he attacks the villainess.

In the confusion, the other PCs manage to make an appearance and they join the fight, as does Marinus, who also wants to stop the villainess. After a long and cool fight scene where lots of second-string villains get their come-uppance, finally the PC in question manages to kill the villainess. Huzzah, right? Hurray for the heroes, for evil is thwarted.

Then, Marinus arrives, injured from the fight where he saved several PCs' lives. He sees the main PC standing over the villain, and hesitantly says that it had been a misunderstanding, and that they don't have to fight each other. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and for at least a little while they were able to work together to save the day.

There is no one else around, since everyone else is tending to the wounded in other rooms. The PC nods quietly, and says they should go help the others. And then when Marinus turns around, he kills him.

Horrible ending. Damn.

I dunno, I never seem to be able to end a campaign well. I don't think that, as a DM, it's too much to ask for the PCs to be a little upstanding when it counts. That ending . . . ugh, it just ruins the whole game for me.

Should've just killed them all with the fiendwurm.
 

drnuncheon

Explorer
RangerWickett said:
Then, Marinus arrives, injured from the fight where he saved several PCs' lives. He sees the main PC standing over the villain, and hesitantly says that it had been a misunderstanding, and that they don't have to fight each other. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and for at least a little while they were able to work together to save the day.

There is no one else around, since everyone else is tending to the wounded in other rooms. The PC nods quietly, and says they should go help the others. And then when Marinus turns around, he kills him.

Are you kidding?

That's great!

He's been waiting 25 years for his revenge and he actually got it. He won. He accomplished his life's goal. The man who slew his father is now dead.

Did you give him any reason not to want to kill Marinus now that the greater foe was dead? Was stabbing him in the back horribly out of character or something?

It sounds like you and your player have a major disconnect over what kind of game you're playing - you wanted heros, he's playing an antihero (or at best a tragic hero, his flaw being his desire for revenge).

J
 

Kesh

First Post
Well, from the sound of things, Marinus wasn't actually evil. He was just a guy who made a terrible, tragic mistake. And (correct me if I'm wrong, RW), the PC knew that by this point.

However, the PC chose not to forgive, and killed Marinus anyway. Not exactly the heroic ending RW hoped for... more like an anti-heroic ending. :D
 

Correct, Kesh. The guy wasn't a villain, and the only time he'd done anything bad against the PCs was when he thought they were working with the villains. It was a purely evil act, in my opinion, what the PC did. And most of the rest of the party was horrified by what he'd done.

I dunno. Maybe I didn't make things clear to the players, but he wasn't a bad guy. I was thrilled that everything else was going so well (they even figured out a cool way to beat the villain), and then the game ends with half the party angry at this one PC. It was a poor way to resolve the game, at least from an emotional perspective.

But hey, get this, here's how the villain got taken out:

The PC's name is Rhuarc, by the by. A rogue/ranger/shadowdancer/Genja Kesh prestige class (see below). The weapons he has are a magic scimitar his mother crafted for him when he was very young, and a mentally-activated gauntlet that has a pair of spring-loaded blades in it. With a thought he can pop out the blades as a surprise weapon.

The climax takes place in and around a large ritual chamber run by the bad guys (the Genja Kesh, sort of like Elvish Bolsheviks who want to take power), with a 10-ft. tall shard of black crystal in the middle, which my players came to call the "throbbing black phallic symbol," which was eerily appropriate. 150-ft. diameter room, with a 25-ft. ceiling and windows surrounding it from all sides from 10-ft. to 20-ft. up. The ritual involves the sacrifice of a bunch of other bad guys who got double-crossed by the villainess.

The villainess is a succubus-like demon, inhabiting the mortal body of the Rhuarc's mother, who he thought died when he was still a child. She had summoned a demon to try to take revenge on Marinus, and it had killed her, or so he thought. In truth, it possessed her, hid away, and has spent the past 15 years or so building up a power base to just screw with the mortals on this world. Long story short, the succubus has duped the Genja Kesh into performing a ritual that will animate all the corpses of those who have died in a recent war (which she incited).

So basically, stopping the ritual is important, and Rhuarc also definitely wants to kill the succubus who stole his mother from him. A big fight is raging in the ritual chamber, with the rest of the PCs (and Marinus) trying to get through the guards to disrupt the priests casting the ritual spell. Rhuarc, though, is a Shadowdancer, and manages to slip by to the center of the room, where his mother/succubus is floating in mid-air, directing the battle and casting her own offensive spells.

Rhuarc tries to sneak up, but she can easily see him, since his Shadowdancer powers are tied strangely to her, and thus she is able to react before he can attack. Supremely confident, she waits for him to climb to the top of the black crystal shard to be within striking distance, and then she holds him, so he can't move. No one else is able to get close enough to help, so she smirks at him, and draws him close for a kiss. He feels the life getting sucked out of him, and he cannot move, but when she moved close to kiss him, his arm ended up pressed against her chest. Mentally, he activates the gauntlet's spring blades, causing them to shoot out and impale her in the chest.

She loses her grip on him, and her hold spell ends abruptly as the two blades stab into her heart. Just as Rhuarc starts to fall off the top of the shard, he lashes out with his scimitar, and impales her in the belly. She screams a satisfying death cry, and then slumps back, falling off the blade and back onto the tip of the giant black shard. When she lands, the demoness is expelled from the body, disrupting the ritual. Lightning begins crackling through the room, striking all the priests involved in the spell, killing them, and stunning the rest of the Genja Kesh.

Rhuarc slumps and falls to the ground, looking up at his dead mother, while the rest of the group finishes off the stunned guards. One PC comes over to check to see if Rhuarc is alright, then rushes off to help some wounded in another room.

.

At this point, Marinus comes over, and the game could have ended with Rhuarc realizing that Marinus had simply made a mistake, and every time since then, any conflict he had had with Marinus had been because of the succubus's manipulation. There would still be the matters of the war to deal with, but it would have ended on a resolved note.

But it didn't. It came so close, and that makes the way it did end so much less satisfying.
 


Geoff Watson

First Post
RangerWickett said:

But it didn't. It came so close, and that makes the way it did end so much less satisfying.

If you want all the characters to dance to your tune, write a book.

Expecting the character to forgive something he's waited 25 years for revenge for an 'Oops it was a mistake' is not likely.

Geoff.
 

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