What's this so-called MMO influence????

[drakshasak]

I have read alot of people talking about some sort of MMO influence. And it is allways talked about like a negative thing. I have been playing WoW since launch and i just dont see this MMO influence. it could be another MMO but to me it just seems like a way to blame changes people dont like on something other than different opinions.

But please fill me in on what people think is this MMO influence. I really wanna know what its suppose to be.

 

[Gloombunny]

Most of the people crying MMO influence have never actually played a MMO, not to mention never played 4e, and basically have no idea what they're talking about.

One popular complaint from these people is that that the defender/striker/leader/controller thing is just like the tank/DPS/healbot thing in MMOs, which conveniently ignores the direct and explicit statements from 4e designers that defenders can do as much damage as anyone and don't use taunts, the obvious fact that leaders do a lot more than heal, and, of course, that nothing like controllers exists in the MMOs they're citing.

The shift to a per-day/per-encounter/at-will model for magic and other abilities comes up too. Of course, there's no at-will magic in WoW, and only the mana-point system it uses for magic bears any resemblance to per-encounter resource balancing.

The elf/eladrin split is supposedly a ripoff of the night elf/blood elf thing from WoW. And tieflings are just like draenei, or something. I don't even know how that's supposed to work.

I think even the new magic item system has been called MMOish, even though it's clearly far less like any MMO than 3.x's magic items ever were.

 

[Dire Lemming]

I won't try to speak for anyone other than myself. To me however it seems like the generisizing(my word) of NPCs, Monsters, and the world, are all very similar to cRPGs, especially the MMOGlike The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. The apparent removal of law and chaos from alignment is also similar to the trend of most CRPGs of including a simple good/evil meter or number system. There's also the new "optional" monthly fee online service that is replacing the magazines and free online content from before which is obviously MMOGlike.

I wouldn't say that they're making 4E like an MMOG, but they are making it significantly more video-game like, which bothers me because I play RPGs because they're different from video-games.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have read alot of people talking about some sort of MMO influence. And it is allways talked about like a negative thing. I have been playing WoW since launch and i just dont see this MMO influence. it could be another MMO but to me it just seems like a way to blame changes people dont like on something other than different opinions.

But please fill me in on what people think is this MMO influence. I really wanna know what its suppose to be.

Well, often enough, it's just used as a shorthand for "there is something in the new edition I don't like". Sometimes, it's elaborated on, and discussing how certain elements can be found in video games / MMOs.
I think most of the time, it can only be shown that these elements have existed in (Roleplaying) Games a long time, and far too often, the concepts hail from D&D or other early RPGs or even their predecessors.

Saying "that's like in a video-game" has become a corrolary or variant of Godwins (or Godwyns?) law, meaning that the poster using this comparison has "lost" the debate and it's essentially over.

Often enough, stealing elements from a MMO isn't a bad idea at all. Many concepts of "keeping the players entertained" or "maintaining game balance across PCs" that can be found in MMOs can be used well for Pen & Paper Roleplaying games.
It's important to distinugish between mechanics that exist purely because one game is run on a computer and the other run by a DM, and those that apply to both.

 

[Wormwood]

Classes, levels, elves and dwarves.

That sort of thing.

 

[Wolfspider]

And tieflings are just like draenei, or something. I don't even know how that's supposed to work.

Even though you peppered your response with vague insults, you do an excellent job of refuting the common arguments used that D&D 4e is becoming more like an MMORPG.

At this point, unfortunately, you abandon all reason and become quite condescending, which is a shame, because I would have liked to have heard what your mind had to say about these complaints rather than your disdain.

As far as the tiefling/draenie issue goes, let me help you understand the complaint.

In previous editions of D&D, tieflings did not have a uniform appearance. Some had horns, some had tails, some were mostly human-looking.

In D&D 4e, tieflings have been given a uniform appearance, with ram-like horns and long tails.

You can see an example of the new tiefling here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo

(Try not to let the hilarious gnome distract you from the issue at hand, which is the sexy tiefling chick.)

Now this is an example of the draenie from World of Warcraft:

http://www.wowwiki.com/images/d/d1/Draenie_copy.jpg

Granted, this fine specimen doesn't have a long tail, but the shape of the horns is very similar to that of the new tiefling.

Actually, I think the draenei in that pic would make a pretty cool tiefling.

Let me admit that I am not emotionally involved in this issue, since I don't play WoW or MMORPGs and I have plenty of other reasons not to want to play D&D 4e at this point, but even in my ignorance I can understand why some people might say there is an influence here. After all, popular things do influence other popular things.

It doesn't seem an unreasonable argument to me....

 

[Wolfspider]

Classes, levels, elves and dwarves.

That sort of thing.

What a rip-off!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I won't try to speak for anyone other than myself. To me however it seems like the generisizing(my word) of NPCs, Monsters, and the world, are all very similar to cRPGs, especially the MMOGlike The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. The apparent removal of law and chaos from alignment is also similar to the trend of most CRPGs of including a simple good/evil meter or number system. There's also the new "optional" monthly fee online service that is replacing the magazines and free online content from before which is obviously MMOGlike.

I wouldn't say that they're making 4E like an MMOG, but they are making it significantly more video-game like, which bothers me because I play RPGs because they're different from video-games.

Most pen & paper games I know don't even have alignment? Warhammer, Shadowrun? Alignment-free.

I am not sure if I get what you mean by "generisizing", though. I know that Shadowrun monsters are pretty simple and usually have little special abilities, if that's what you're adressing. I think the same applies for Warhammer. (Before I speculate more, it might be better for me to let you eloberate more )

 

[ObsidianCrane]

I wouldn't say that they're making 4E like an MMOG, but they are making it significantly more video-game like, which bothers me because I play RPGs because they're different from video-games.

The day they make a CRPG that lets me do everything I can do in a DnD game is the day I will stop needing to play DnD or other PnP games. Thats a good few years off yet, computers don't handle "unscripted events" very well atm. cRPGs can try and hide their linearity by offering the illusion of choice, but the ultimate deal is you are restricted to the pre-scripted conversations and events (at least for the moment), and going "off the path" is just not really possible.

As to the Tiefling vs Draenie thing the Tieflings have been around for ages, far longer than the Draenie, so I think the idea that the Draenie borrowed the Tiefling and Blizzard gave them a unified look is likely more true than the other way around - if there is any connection at all. Further DnD Tieflings have largely had a unified look since they first appeared, some are more demonic looking, some less, but they have been fairly uniform, it is only the fluff text that says they are more varied, which appears to be the way it still is in 4E - art = uniform, fluff = more variation.

Also the Alignment argument is backwards as well - cRPGs took alignment from PnP games, the fact the DnD is finally moving towards abandoning Alignment is a good thing for the game. Most RPGs have gotten along fine without it for years anyway.

 

[Jack99]

Nice first post.

You should know, just in case you aren't here to stir up things, that this subject has been debated back and forth 756 times, and just like all the other hot potatoes, no matter how well you argue and how much you prove things, the lovers and haters of 4e won't be swayed one bit, and will continue to argue back and forth.

Personally, I am a 4e fanboy, or whatever we are called these days. I really like 99% or more of what we hear about 4e. I have played DND since 89 or so, and I had well over 500 days /played in MMORGS (EQ+WoW) when I quit about a year ago, and as I see it, there is next to nothing in 4e that makes it more video-gamey.

Take that as you wish,

Cheers