What's Up With The Monk?

[hong]

I think that there is simultaneously too much and not enough "asian" flavor, for lack of a better term. Many of the monk's abilities are clearly inspired by HK movies and the whole eastern unarmed ass kicker archetype, but the class comes across as more of a survivalist than it does a Kain/Bruce/Jackie/Jet/Shaolin composite.

I think a problem a lot of players and DMs have with the class is that it brings to mind images of Shaolin warriors kicking and punching their way through legions of hapless opponents without really giving you the tools to do it.

In other words, it does its job well, but it does the wrong job.

YES! This is exactly the point I made before. Whatever the monk does well, it isn't what a lot of people want it to do.

 

[Acmite]

A silk shirt with an armour bonus to AC would essentially be bracers of armour occupying a different item slot. No big deal there. You don't even need an item made for you, just a cleric who can cast magic vestment when needed.



The consensus for the longest time in the Rules forum has been that bracers don't count as "worn armour".

I agree that looking at the shirt as an alterante slot for bracers of armour makes sense, but I'm still not sure I'd allow it. It just feels wrong.

I know the consensus has been to allow bracers of armour (I even participated in some of those debates 1.5 years ago on the side of allowing them), but since I'm not currently running a game (I hope to be starting up a game in the next few months) I haven't made my final decision. I'd probably allow it, but I haven't 100% made up my mind.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

couple points one the fighter displayed on this page would get owned by any monk built with any degree of efficiency. hide/sneak are brutal skills in one on one fights, spring attack and great movement make these skills even more brutal. weapons may be cool but if your stunned even once your weapons are dropped, and that nice movement rate likely means your weapons are long gone before you get to move again.

All of which proves that one on one fights prove nada. If people want to prove the fighter is a better fighter than the monk, I just say well duh. Is the fighter so much a better fighter that the monks other abilities don't make up the difference? Not even clsoe if anything the fighter needs a boost.

Which class would I want in a party. 99% of the time I'd prefer a monk if I was the one shaping the party. Why because a fighter is an absolute and compleate gimp in every situation that can't be solved with his sword. And his lack of all skills useful generally means the party gets in a ton more fights than I'd prefer. My favorite part composition of 4 is rogue/druid/ranger/monk. decent fighting, decent magic, and fantastic stealth. I'd accept a wiz/sor if they were oriented towards illusion magic.

monk to hit/damage at 10th level can easily be +13/+13/+10/+7(+15/+12+9 if you don't flurry) for 1d10+8 great nope, but adequate yep. And that's all the monk should be adequate at fighting, he gets a cool special ability every level, had 4 skill points with a cool selection of class skill, d8 hp, and all good saves. If he fought as good as the fighter the fighter would suck more than he already does.

 

[Gizzard]

The monk doesn't have the sheer combat power of the fighter, but he also doesn't have the brain of a turnip or a Will save that's going to cause him to drop like panties on prom night.

This is just starting to become a problem now at my level (5th) so I understand what you are saying. But what happens when the Barbarian gets Dominated? He comes over and kicks the Monks butt! It doesn't matter that I could have saved against that spell, every intelligent monster knows not to cast on the Monk. Not that it matters either way; if all saves were equal would anyone pick the Monk to Dominate? No, because you would rather control any of other party members instead.

He can, however, get across the entire battlefield in about .5 seconds and put a hurt on the spellcaster that's just itching to drop a Dominate Person or Hold Person on the fighter.

OK, everyone is, as far as I can tell, talking about some high-level Monks. At 5th, I cannot get across the battlefield any faster than the Barbarian (40'). One more level and then I'll be able to do something no one else can do - move 50'. But its been a long slog to that point.

Monks are a lot like bards. (And yes I know some of you think they suck too...)

I think Bards rock. They are actually decent at a bunch of different stuff. At first and second levels, the Bard seemed iffy; but now she is starting to rack up both Clerical and Arcane spells; she's not as good as a specialist at anything, but she is a generalist in almost everything. She gives a constant flow of contribution to the party: a Song to help during combat, a couple shots with the Short Bow, maybe a Magic Missile or a Daze and then some Cure Lights afterwards. I like Bards.

The Monk, on the other hand, is not as good as a specialist in his main area (fighting) and he's not got much skill as a generalist. ("Can you cast Arcane spells? No? How about Divine? No? Then you must be able to Disarm this Trap. No?! What is it that you do then? You "Balance"? You "Deflect Arrows"? Is that supposed to help the party in some way???") The Bard shows how a good generalist can be made in 3E and points up how shallow the Monks abilities as a "jack-of-all trades" are.

one the fighter displayed on this page would get owned by any monk built with any degree of efficiency.

I dont see the weakness. You talk about stunning, but I dont think you can count on that with Fort+10 and AC 23. You talk about movement, but the Fighter has Boots of Speed; I dont think you are going to hit & run him as much as you think. And hiding and sneaking (which means no great movement rate),well, I think that Fighter can afford to take a couple good hits from the Monk - whereas the Monk cannot say the same thing.

Of course, 10th level Monks arent my specialty. But I will tell you who owns who between a 5th level Fighter and a 5th level Monk. ;-)

Anyway, do you think you can post a Monk thats significantly better than Hakkenshi's? I'd be curious to see it; I thought Hakkenshi hit the high points even if he didnt tune as thoroughly as Wolfen Priest.

 

[S'mon]

I agree that looking at the shirt as an alterante slot for bracers of armour makes sense, but I'm still not sure I'd allow it. It just feels wrong.

I know the consensus has been to allow bracers of armour (I even participated in some of those debates 1.5 years ago on the side of allowing them), but since I'm not currently running a game (I hope to be starting up a game in the next few months) I haven't made my final decision. I'd probably allow it, but I haven't 100% made up my mind.

Would you disallow a wizard casting Mage Armor on a monk, then? It's the same thing! All 'bracers of armor' do is give you a permanenced 'mage armor' effect of variable strength, that's where the 'armor' bit comes in, because it's an armor bonus rather than a deflection bonus (or whatever). As has been pointed out, a shirt of (mage) armor can and should be treated exactly the same as bracers.
BTW re 'magic vestment', this appears to be a slightly inferior solution since the Enhancement bonus it grants doesn't appear to be effective vs incorporeal opponents, unlike bracers of armor or a mage armor spell. Otherwise it's a good idea. 'Armor' for the purposes of Monk abilities means the stuff in the Equipment section that grants (non-magical) Armor bonuses, eg padded armor, shields, chainmail etc, not spells and magic that grant 'armor' bonuses. They're called 'armor' bonuses because they don't stack with the Armor bonuses from equipment.

 

[S'mon]

The monks in my game are great at wading through hordes of mooks like Bruce Lee & co, combined with their evasive and stealth abilities they're powerful characters despite lacking the massive destructive power of a Sorcerer or great cleaving Fighter. The only opponents they've had trouble with are big monsters with high DR; my game is somewhat magic poor but still they both have +2 weapons at 9th level and can handle most appropriate CRS, that they couldn't beat an Iron Devil (from CC2)was based S&S had incorrectly altered its CR.

 

[Fenes 2]

I have to add that, even though I said it before, IMC a monk would be horribly overpowered. It is low magic, with many social challenges, and not a whole lot of combat - often only one main fight per adventure, if at all. Many fights happen at inopportune times, like during a ball, or during a nightly assault on an inn, or on the market. Many adventures also require infiltration or disguise skills.

 

[Darklone]

One of my groups got bashed by a similar fighter to that guy up there in the thread after another big battle...

The groups monk covered the retreat then. He used expertise and fighting defensively on a rope bridge to block the fighter (pl, hit him more often with his many attacks than he got hit for more damage and simply waved goodbye and walked home after he bought enough time for his group to escape.

If this would have been a fighter, he could have cut the bridge and died gloriously together with the enemy.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Well, Wolfen Priest, I'll admit my monk would probably get owned (as someone said) by your fighter.

But of course that's not the point, nor is gaining experience

Would I have fun playing my monk? Definitely.
Without trashing your design (as I said, it's very effective), I wouldn't have fun grunting in the background as a boorish and idiotic Half-Orc.

Rings of Mage Armour aren't in the DMG, and I chose to go with standard items. Please note that whatever non-magical metal items you own are actually dust now. God, I love Gauntlets of Rust

Best item design in the DMG! Heh heh heh.
Thanks for the kind words Gizzard, I hope you have fun with the monk, I always do (it's my MPC, Most-Played-Class, by far).

I think Arcane Runes Press (that seems impersonal ) got it right: it's perfectly fine to expect the monk to perform well in most situations, but it's unfair to expect him to outclass everyone (which no one wants anyway).

Well, it's been fun!

 

[Hakkenshi]

Oh, and Wolfen Priest, you spent 7,000 gp too many. Just a detail.

Bards rule too!