What's Up With The Monk?

[Wolfen Priest]

Basically what I'm saying is poison is dishonorable. If everyone used poison, you'd have chaos (pronounced CHOWSE ). However, it's really no more _evil_ than using a weapon; either way, your trying to destroy your enemy.

But using poision (it could at least be argued) is pretty chaotic in that it disrupts the "order" of honorable combat.

However, I don't think poision would be a problem for a monk to use (but nor do I think that using it will add much to the monk class); I'm just playing devil's advocate.

 

[Christian]

Well ... (digs old books out of closet) ... In the AD&D Player's Handbook, the chart shows that monks might be able to use poison, but can't use flaming oil. So, that should settle it!

Can't use flaming oil? Why the heck ... never mind, just forget I even came by.

(Can't use flaming oil? )

 

[Christian]

What cracks me up is that all the monk detractors seem bent on comparing the monk to every other class.

That d20 unarmed attack sure pales in comparison to a 10d6 fireball! Why would anyone play a monk instead of a sorcerer!

I played a monk up to 6th level in my current campaign, until he succumbed to a death attack a few sessions ago. Paying for an NPC cleric to cast Raise Dead was within our financial capabilities-but sadly, that's insufficient to bring back a character killed that way ...

I had a lot of fun, and I didn't feel useless or overshadowed at all. And I think that the other players felt the same way-I learned last week that the part has started a 'Resurrect Zanthater' fund. I'm trying to find a justification for my new halfling sorcerer to contribute to it in spite of not having any idea who 'Zanthater' was.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

(Can't use flaming oil? )

Excuse me, but hasn't anyone ever seen Drunken Master with Jackie Chan? At the end, flaming oil becomes his specialty! Great movie, BTW.

 

[Christian]

Excuse me, but hasn't anyone ever seen Drunken Master with Jackie Chan? At the end, flaming oil becomes his specialty! Great movie, BTW.

I guess E. Gary Gygax hadn't, anyway.

 

[LokiDR]

Basically what I'm saying is poison is dishonorable. If everyone used poison, you'd have chaos (pronounced CHOWSE ). However, it's really no more _evil_ than using a weapon; either way, your trying to destroy your enemy.

But using poision (it could at least be argued) is pretty chaotic in that it disrupts the "order" of honorable combat.

However, I don't think poision would be a problem for a monk to use (but nor do I think that using it will add much to the monk class); I'm just playing devil's advocate.

The fact is that poisoning is against the law in every sort of civilized world. To quote Enemies and Allies

Poison is coward's weapon, and only the worst sort would use it. I'll have a shipment in next week, but get here early as it goes fast.

This goes against any conventional honor or law. That is why I don't think it would work in concept for a monk, unless he is evil and his dojo sanctions it. The "Order of the Spider" sounds distinctly evil.

 

[Psion]

This goes against any conventional honor or law.

Monks don't exactly fit my definition of "conventional".

Further, backpedaling to the notion of honor, what makes poison seem "dishonorable" to me would be two similarly equipped warriors, one of which secretly smears venom on his blade to tip the scales, without his opponent knowing or having the benefit of the same advantage. That's sneaky and treacherous, that's the sort of thing that the "poison is dishonorable" thing springs from.

Now, if you are talking about the mosswalkers of the emerald swamp, known for using tree frog poison on their shuriken, that seems entirely kosher to me. Chances are that their opponent isn't using shuriken -- and if they are, they are probably also poisoned.

After all, monks also get move silently and hide, which are also things your typical armored knight would consider "dishonorable." But playing a monk as if he had the same code of honor that a knight would have isn't the essence of lawful. It's stupid -- it'll just get him creamed.

 

[Gizzard]

I played a monk up to 6th level in my current campaign, until he succumbed to a death attack a few sessions ago....I had a lot of fun, and I didn't feel useless or overshadowed at all.

Hmmm, OK, this I am interested in. You and Zog are the only two people in this thread to feel useful as low level Monks (sorry if I missed someone).

Can you tell about your experiences; 1) what was your party makeup, 2) were you a straight PHB Monk or did you include items/feats from other sources, 3) did you have a high or low magic campaign? (Its probably easiest to list your items here so its clear.)

My 5th level Monk is listed earlier in this thread for reference.

But playing a monk as if he had the same code of honor that a knight would have isn't the essence of lawful. It's stupid -- it'll just get him creamed.

This is interesting - I wonder what a good "Monk's Code" would be? I used the Bushido code from OA as my starting point, but you are right; its intended for Knights (Samurai) and it just gets a Monk killed. "Its dishonorable to leave a fight." "Its dishonorable to lose a fight." "Its dishonorable not to accept a challenge." Huh. Well, at least, "It is honorable to die bravely in battle," which is fortunate since thats what the poor Monk will be doing if he follows that Code too closely.

 

[LokiDR]

Monks don't exactly fit my definition of "conventional".

. . .

After all, monks also get move silently and hide, which are also things your typical armored knight would consider "dishonorable." But playing a monk as if he had the same code of honor that a knight would have isn't the essence of lawful. It's stupid -- it'll just get him creamed.

Playing a monk like a knight is sucide, but poison is still a less than lawful thing to do, or at least less than good. The only class that gets any ability that deals with poison is assassin, which requires evil.

Any game can be run any way, and YMMV, but it seems that the publishers have seen poison use as non-legal, non-good. This is where my problem comes from.

 

[Christian]

Hmmm, OK, this I am interested in. You and Zog are the only two people in this thread to feel useful as low level Monks (sorry if I missed someone).

Can you tell about your experiences; 1) what was your party makeup, 2) were you a straight PHB Monk or did you include items/feats from other sources, 3) did you have a high or low magic campaign? (Its probably easiest to list your items here so its clear.)

Well, let's see ... 1) The other members of the group were a cleric, a druid, and a gnoll fighter/adept (or something-I was never quite clear on that). We've had other characters drift through-there's a rogue/wizard and a barbarian in the group now, but they were lower level (as is the gnoll due to that pesky ECL thing). Ol' Z was stuck as a primary front-line combatant, which didn't really match the monk forte very well. (See my sig for an example ...)

2) Basically straight PHB. The DM rolled in the OA monk options for feat substitution, which I used at 6th level to get Spring Attack and (replacing Improved Trip) Expertise. Also, he added quarterstaff as a monk weapon ... which helped with ...

3) Average. At 6th level, Z. had some potions, some magic boots of unknown powers, and his handy-dandy magic quarterstaff. The Staff of Spirits was a poor cousin of an Undead Bane weapon-+1 hit and damage, +1d6 damage vs. undead. Overall, probaby a bit magic-light.

Overall, it worked pretty well. The druid and cleric had effective buffing spells for him (Barkskin, [Greater] Magic Fang, Bull's Strength) and the large healing quotient in the group helped make up for his poor hit points. He also had rolled very good stats Not incredible, but enough to have very good Str, Dex, and Wis, so decent AC + good damage rolls. Low Con and d8 hit die kept him from mixing it up as much as I would have liked-but he dealt out a lot of punishment to the opposition. And as long as he stayed close to the cleric for periodic Cure Serious Wounds he could keep dishing it out for quite a while.

The DM used a fair number of magical/trap threats rather than straight combat, which helped highlight the advantages of the good saves and Evasion ability. (When we were Rogueless, he'd scout ahead and set off traps. ) And in particular, enemy spellcasters-the lack of which often leaves the opposition underpowered in combat-were very vulnerable to him early on. This had just started to get harder in the sessions before his untimely demise, as they started flying away, the cowards! Missile combat is definitely a problem, and the good mobility is limited to the ground (and maybe a bit higher, as an insufficiently high Levitator found out once).