What's Up With The Monk?

[mattcolville]

What cracks me up is that all the monk detractors seem bent on comparing the monk to every other class.

What cracks me up is people who willfully ignore what I'm talking about. I'm not comparing the Monk to the other classes except insofar as the other classes each contribute to the success of the party. Monks don't. I don't care that Fighters are better at dishing out damage, and Clerics are better at healing. I care that Monks aren't that good at anything. They're not even particularly good at being Monk-like.

I don't mean to be a weenie-head, and I've been absent from a lot of the discussion (because, even though no other board I'm on does this, it seems that I can't use IE on the Mac to browse ENWorld and get the board to refresh properly, but I'm posting from my PC now) but I think I see two places in D&D where the designers catered to fans, giving them what they want *knowing* they were providing less than useful choices.

Half-orcs and Monks.

People want to play Half Orcs and Monks, and the 3E team put them in. They probably thought about how to balance them out against the other choices, make them *as* useful as the other races and classes. Then they decide "Hey, we don't have to balance them, if players want to play them, they'll play them."

So Monks are different than all the other classes in that they perform no useful function. As I said earlier, it's not a case of them being useless, it's a case of them not being useful *enough*. But they can do *neat* things and players like neat stuff.

Monk aren't unarmed combat masters. I think they should be, but they're not. Monks don't belong in a medieval fantasy game. They belong in an oriental game, which D&D is not.

My two cents, YMMV

 

[Wolfen Priest]

(slightly OT)

One of the main reasons I gave the half-orc fighter an INT of only 6, was because no matter how low a PC's INT is, the character always gets at least one skill point per level. It's interesting how little this matters for a fighter with only 2 skill points.

 

[mattcolville]

I have the feeling most people house rule this, or rarely use monks as NPCs. If so, well.. that's hardly a fair complaint.

It's a fair complaint. In my game, there *is* no orient. There's no place for oriental characters or weapons to be from. No kamas. . .anywhere. Nor should I have to presume that there is. WotC decided to stick in a class that's based on an entirely different melieu than the rest of the book. That's not my fault, nor do I feel I should be punished for it by having to change my game to accomodate such decisions. There's no psionics in my game either.

Both psionics and the orient have their own books, and all the things (save one!) that belong in there, are in there, and not in the core book.

Monks and the orient belong in the orient book, just like psionics belong in the psionics book.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I've been grimacing at 'rouge' for a week now. Thanks.

Tzarevitch:
"damage on average than the Str bonus does). Magic weapons help with the hit problem but the monk tends to use obscure weapons that are rarely ever found. "

I've heard this from a variety of sources. Uh. What?

DMG 'common melee' table for magic weapons lists kama, nunchaku, and siangham, each at about 4%. So you are as likely to find a kama as a dagger.

Um. How is that rare? Monk weapons are about 1 in 8 of found weapons.

I have the feeling most people house rule this, or rarely use monks as NPCs. If so, well.. that's hardly a fair complaint.

I think it is a fair complaint. Your argument assumes that every treasure you run into is totally random treasure rolled straight out of the DMG. Most treasure is not that random. Unless you play 1e-style, treasure tends to be specific to the environment and the setting.

Treasure you find tends to be the stuff that the person or people who owned it could use. If you are playing in a non-oriental setting, only monks every really use those weapons because they aren't terribly effective for anyone else.

If you are looting through an ancient dwarven ruin for example you will usually find dwarven weapons (axes, swords, hammers etc.) Unless your DM is kind puts bizarre stuff in there (by rolling totally randomly) or you run in to the dwarven monk dojo, you won't find many nunchaku or anything remotely resembling a monk weapon (which is why I allow monks to use quarterstaves with their unarmed attack rate).

The problem is that a monk only gets much benefit out of a small category of exotic weapons and those same weapons are some of the least useful weapons for anyone else (they frequently require exotic weapon prof and are low damage to boot.) Because these weapons are so minimally useful to anyone else they are almost never made made for anyone other than a monk for his own use, or BY a monk for his own use (or use of his monk friends).

Add to this the fact that monks don't NEED to use magic weapons (and can frequently do more damage without them), and the fact that monk is a fairly rare class to start with, you will find VERY few monk weapons in circulation unless the DM chooses to make a purely random roll of the table. To date, I have never played with a DM that rolls randomly and keeps items that don't make sense for their location or owner.

The PHB monk class is very dependent on the DMG tables for useful weapons. If you are playing in a setting where magic items aren't that common you will be lucky to ever find enchanted monk weapons.

Tzarevitch

 

[mattcolville]

I happen to think that monks are very fun to play.

If you have one and are not having fun then you are doing SOMETHING wrong.
g!

I have two players playing Monks. They have fun. They'd have more fun, though, if their characters were as useful as the rest of the party.

But they're working on it. They're going to try and buy Amulets of Mighty Fists and I let them use Shortspears, Quarterstaffs, and Javelins with their UA bonus and # of attacks.

 

[Acmite]

First, it seems a bit strange that "Lawful" class would use poison, but it does work out well. I guess it depends on local laws and how you define alignment.

Clearly we define alignment differently, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how using poison would be unlawful (in terms of alignment, not legality).

I certainly don't see poison as being particularly "neutral" or chaotic.

I could see the argument (and disagree with it) for poison being "evil", but I'm really at a loss here. Can you explain your reasoning?

 

[Acmite]

I have two players playing Monks. They have fun. They'd have more fun, though, if their characters were as useful as the rest of the party.

But they're working on it. They're going to try and buy Amulets of Mighty Fists and I let them use Shortspears, Quarterstaffs, and Javelins with their UA bonus and # of attacks.

By the sounds of it, that might be enough to make them happier. This sounds strange, but maybe let them use a spiked chain with their unarmed BAB and # of attacks?

I don't like the weapon, but it does offer reach, which is something the monk really lacks. They'd still have to take the proficiency in it, of course.

Just a wild, off-the-cuff suggestion....

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Clearly we define alignment differently, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how using poison would be unlawful (in terms of alignment, not legality).

I certainly don't see poison as being particularly "neutral" or chaotic.

I could see the argument (and disagree with it) for poison being "evil", but I'm really at a loss here. Can you explain your reasoning?

I think he just means that since (in most campaigns) poison is bought on the black market, it's probably illegal, and therefore unlawful to use it. Just a guess.

Personally, I can't see any better way to define the law vs. chaos axis than by what is considered legal/illegal. Which reflects order versus disorder. Thus, using poison is disorderly...? Sort of like hitting below the belt perhaps. I don't know!

 

[LokiDR]

I think it is a fair complaint. Your argument assumes that every treasure you run into is totally random treasure rolled straight out of the DMG. Most treasure is not that random. Unless you play 1e-style, treasure tends to be specific to the environment and the setting.

Treasure you find tends to be the stuff that the person or people who owned it could use. If you are playing in a non-oriental setting, only monks every really use those weapons because they aren't terribly effective for anyone else.

If you are looting through an ancient dwarven ruin for example you will usually find dwarven weapons (axes, swords, hammers etc.) Unless your DM is kind puts bizarre stuff in there (by rolling totally randomly) or you run in to the dwarven monk dojo, you won't find many nunchaku or anything remotely resembling a monk weapon (which is why I allow monks to use quarterstaves with their unarmed attack rate).

The problem is that a monk only gets much benefit out of a small category of exotic weapons and those same weapons are some of the least useful weapons for anyone else (they frequently require exotic weapon prof and are low damage to boot.) Because these weapons are so minimally useful to anyone else they are almost never made made for anyone other than a monk for his own use, or BY a monk for his own use (or use of his monk friends).

Add to this the fact that monks don't NEED to use magic weapons (and can frequently do more damage without them), and the fact that monk is a fairly rare class to start with, you will find VERY few monk weapons in circulation unless the DM chooses to make a purely random roll of the table. To date, I have never played with a DM that rolls randomly and keeps items that don't make sense for their location or owner.

The PHB monk class is very dependent on the DMG tables for useful weapons. If you are playing in a setting where magic items aren't that common you will be lucky to ever find enchanted monk weapons.

Tzarevitch

You can always explain why an item is there. Maybe the enemy was interested in being a monk at one time. Maybe it is a trophy. Maybe it's the spoils of war that haven't been sold off. This doesn't fix the problem of the monk weapons sucking, it just makes them more common. My last monk had a Kama +3 keen, and the fighter STILL outclassed me with a piddly +1.

 

[Psion]

I find this poison is unlawful thing a little dubious.

I can see why for a particular character why it would be against their code of conduct or honor. But at the same time, I could see an order of monks who hold a philosophy that "the spider can fell the mighty beast", and are given to crafting poison.

I don't think that the local law is necessarily indicative of what the monk would do unless the monk or his order is beholden to the local authorities. IMO, lawfulness is a deep respect for SOME order or authority, not a particular order or authority.