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What's Up With The Monk?

What cracks me up is that all the monk detractors seem bent on comparing the monk to every other class. Sure, all those others can each INDIVIDUALLY do something the monk does better, but there's always two or three other things a monk can still outdo them in.

If you're expecting the monk to be the ultimate fighter, the ultimate sneak AND the ultimate meatshield, then yes, you're right to say he doesn't fulfill your expectations. But then you've got the wrong expectations in the first place, so don't complain. The monk does better in those situations than anyone but the classes specialized in them, which is no mean feat.
 

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I have played a monk in the past, and as a DM I have tried to find ways to make them effective as a point for the world. Here is what I have learned.

When I played the monk, I tried to leverage my AC and be the party decoy. Sometimes it worked, but most times the monsters just ignored me after a couple of rounds. I died at level 5 to a t-rex. That lack of hit points means that I fell in one hit. No, I didn't go the spring attack rout, but I don't think you would have to. I kinda had fun playing this character, but the rest of the party thought I was kinda useless.

As for trying to make monks usfull in my game, I can only say that trip and especially grappling are made for monks. When a monk can use his d8, d10, or d12 damage in hand to hand but a fighter is stuck without his greatsword, it is a beautiful thing. The problem is that the average monk won't beat a fighter of the same level, due to BAB and the fighters greater focus on strength. This doesn't mean that grapling won't work against those annoying clerics, rouges, and especially wizards. But in dangerous situations, what wizard doesn't fly?

My take on monks is that they try for too many abilities, and don't manage to pull off any very well. A well made, well played monk can be a great asset, but it is so much easier to play a fighter if you want to fight or a rouge if you want to sneak. Monk, like bard, takes some real tallent to pull off.

If you want to try to "fix" the monk, make them better at what they do better than almost every one else. Let them add wis bonus to grapple checks, and/or increase BAB for graple to fighter levels. This means they have a good chance against a fighter, and will maul most every one else. Not huge damage (fighter) but they shut oppenents down and finish them off.
 

Where does this line about monks not being able to do damage keep coming from?

Monks get some very big dice at high levels and they get a lot of swings. Honestly, monks are much less dependent on Str to do damage than most classes.

I also don't see where the complaint about hit points comes from. D8 statistically is not much worse than the d10 that the fighters use. If you have a high CON then the exact die roll matters even less.

I do admit that monks are probably the most stat dependent class in the PHB. Paladins are pretty bad too but at least they can wear armor and shaft dex. Monks can only afford to shaft Cha safely. They need strength to help them hit more than for the damage (the die itself is so large at high levels it generates more of the damage on average than the Str bonus does). Magic weapons help with the hit problem but the monk tends to use obscure weapons that are rarely ever found.

The monk needs dex to NOT get hit since they can't make effective use of armor. Wis is probably the monk's most important stat, both to help not get hit and because it helps the DC against the monk's other abilities (such as stunning blow).

They also need Int because they get too few skill points and of course everybody needs some Con.

I do agree that the monk has problems. Most of these are trivial and easily house-ruled.

First, the monk has WAY too few skill points. 6+Int would be better. The monk is the second most skill-dependent class after the rogue and it's 4+int skill points is too low for them to have many of the skills they need at levels that they need them.

Second, the monk's Ki Strike (or whatever it is called) that allows them to strike creatures that need magic weapons is too feeble. It is too low and comes in too late. By the time a monk can breach +1 every warrior-type in the party probably has +2 weapons. If I remember correctly, the monk doesn't even get the hit or damage bonuses from it. This can however be remedied with monk-weapons (which are all pretty bad and hard to find to boot). I also allow monks to enchant brass knuckles so that they do their barehanded damage WITH the enhancements from the knuckles (i.e. the knuckles do not have a damage die, you use the die from your fist.)

Third, the monk's SR is lame. I wouldn't object to the fact that you get it so late if it weren't for the fact that the SR is so low. By the time you get it it is too weak to do much for you and there is no way to boost it through abilities or feats.

Fourth, the monk has no way to boost the DC of his abilities wihtout boosting his stats. Couple this with feeble DCs and you can see why most of the monk abilities that affect others never work. This is easily remedied by adding feats that help.

Honestly, while I do agree that the monk should not be in the PHB (it should be in OA where the rules do it justice), most of the monk's problems come from the fact that the players running them play them so badly. Monk is the single most poorly played class that I have ever seen. I have seen more monks run up to the big bad thing and get splattered than I'd care to name.

Monks should not play like fighters. They are not fighters any more than a rogue is a fighter. If the rogue goes toe to toe with a golem he will probably die, yet no one whines that rogues are weak.

The monk is a spec-ops guy. He is not a shock trooper. The monk uses his stealth and skills to get close to high-value, soft targets (usually mages and priests) and takes them out. His abilities are almost tailor made to be able to disable spellcasters. He has good saves, evasion, high speed and does significant damage. He is also a compentent spy and infiltrator. Basically the perfect spec-ops guy. If players learn to use the monk properly its abilities do shine (as much as the PHB allows anyway). If you want to go toe-to-toe with a giant or a golem, play a fighter.

Tzarevitch
 

I think the peculiar thing about the monk is they interesting abilities that scale up pretty well, and they seemed designed with an archaic "delayed gratification" model. In other words, you are supposed to suffer at low levels because your abilities become quite powerful at high level.

My observation is that low level monks flat out suck, medium level monks are okay, high level monks are quite good. Other classes have frontloading issues, this one is backloaded.
 

Monks get some very big dice at high levels and they get a lot of swings. Honestly, monks are much less dependent on Str to do damage than most classes.

Without a good strength score, you'll end up doing maybe 1d20+5 damage a hit, which isn't that good at level 20. Compared to a fighter's possible 3d6+16, your damage sucks.

I also don't see where the complaint about hit points comes from. D8 statistically is not much worse than the d10 that the fighters use. If you have a high CON then the exact die roll matters even less.

This is where stat dependancy comes in. After giving your highest stats to Wis and Dex (and possibly Str), your Con will most likely be average, if that. Whereas a fighter can afford to pump Con, you can't. That means your hit points suffer more than the d8 reflects.

I do admit that monks are probably the most stat dependent class in the PHB.

This, IMHO, is what absolutely kills the monk. Their stat dependancy makes them neutered unless you are playing in a campaign that allows high stats (like 5d6 drop two, or 40 point point buy, etc.).

First, the monk has WAY too few skill points. 6+Int would be better. The monk is the second most skill-dependent class after the rogue and it's 4+int skill points is too low for them to have many of the skills they need at levels that they need them.

I really don't think this is a problem. There are several other classes that deserve 6 skill points a level more than a monk.

Second, the monk's Ki Strike (or whatever it is called) that allows them to strike creatures that need magic weapons is too feeble. It is too low and comes in too late. By the time a monk can breach +1 every warrior-type in the party probably has +2 weapons. If I remember correctly, the monk doesn't even get the hit or damage bonuses from it. This can however be remedied with monk-weapons (which are all pretty bad and hard to find to boot). I also allow monks to enchant brass knuckles so that they do their barehanded damage WITH the enhancements from the knuckles (i.e. the knuckles do not have a damage die, you use the die from your fist.)

Agreed, Ki Strike blows. And the magical weapon equivelant for a monk costs THREE TIMES as much as a magical weapon.

[qupte]Third, the monk's SR is lame. I wouldn't object to the fact that you get it so late if it weren't for the fact that the SR is so low. By the time you get it it is too weak to do much for you and there is no way to boost it through abilities or feats. [/quote]

IIRC, a monk's SR is 10+level, which means you'll be able to ignore 45% of the spells flung at you by an equal level mage. That's hardly shabby.

Fourth, the monk has no way to boost the DC of his abilities wihtout boosting his stats. Couple this with feeble DCs and you can see why most of the monk abilities that affect others never work. This is easily remedied by adding feats that help.

KI STRAPS! Best thing for monks since... well, I can't think of anything, but they are good.

Monks should not play like fighters. They are not fighters any more than a rogue is a fighter. If the rogue goes toe to toe with a golem he will probably die, yet no one whines that rogues are weak.

But rogues have damage protential that monks don't have.

The monk is a spec-ops guy. He is not a shock trooper. The monk uses his stealth and skills to get close to high-value, soft targets (usually mages and priests) and takes them out. His abilities are almost tailor made to be able to disable spellcasters. He has good saves, evasion, high speed and does significant damage. He is also a compentent spy and infiltrator. Basically the perfect spec-ops guy. If players learn to use the monk properly its abilities do shine (as much as the PHB allows anyway). If you want to go toe-to-toe with a giant or a golem, play a fighter.

But the thing is, in a typical DnD campaign, the niche that the monk fills just doesn't help out the party that much.
 

Hejdun explained all the reasoning I used for my original post. The monk as "special ops" is a nifty idea, but it takes a lot of experience and effort to make it really pay off. As for level, I am not too concerned with high level monks, because it is so boring getting there.

The monk seems specifically designed for those places where a fighter/rogue is screwed. If all characters are stipped naked, the monk slauters. How often does this happen? Same for capture, high propery damage, or very low magic situations. Sneaking around and taking out the back line is specialized rogue. If you don't have one of these rogues, then the monk is good. The designers seem to be filling in cracks with this class, but games normally just ignore those kinds of cracks anyway.

I can think of 20 situations that the monk is the BEST choice. But these just won't come up, at least not regularly in any game I have ever run or played. That is why monks suck.
 
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My observation is that low level monks flat out suck, medium level monks are okay, high level monks are quite good. Other classes have frontloading issues, this one is backloaded.

OK, perfect. Does anyone disagree with this?

People seem to be talking about all different levels of Monks (and Monk equipment! And non-PHB Monks!) as if they were all the same. Please specify the *kind* of Monk you think doesnt suck if you are defending Monks. ;-)

The monk uses his stealth and skills to get close to high-value, soft targets (usually mages and priests) and takes them out. His abilities are almost tailor made to be able to disable spellcasters. He has good saves, evasion, high speed and does significant damage. He is also a compentent spy and infiltrator. Basically the perfect spec-ops guy. If players learn to use the monk properly its abilities do shine

Sure, Mage-killing is what a high-level Monk is good at. Does this role make sense for a Monk under 6th level? Nope. The Monk doesnt have any better speed than the Barbarian at this point, and low-level mages arent as comparatively dangerous as high-level mages anyway. By the time I run across the open field at 40' speed, a low level mage has exhausted his 3 best spells.

I also disagree that a Priest is a "soft" target that a Monk can take out. The BAB, STR bonus, AC and HPs tend to be roughly equal between the two classes. I think everyone agrees that Cleric is a very strong class under 3E; I expect a fight against a Cleric to be a pitched battle.

As for being an infiltrator; this works if you are above ground in daylight or have Darkvision. If you dont have Darkvision, you will not be performing this role well. This really constrains what a Human Monk can do, for instance. As a practical matter, if "spy" is one of the Monks main abilities then people have to take a non-Human race in order to make it useful. (And they also have to play in a campaign where spying is useful, which is not always the case either.)

Basically, I agree that the Monk (especially the high-level Monk) has a role to play. It may be a narrow role and a little monotonous, but at least the rest of the party wont look at him and think, "What is it that you do again?" "I kill the Wizard before he kills you all." "OK, thats a good thing, carry on."

But, so many of the Monks special abilities are narrowly focused like that; 9/10s of the time I am just a bad Fighter. And the one time in 10 that I get to do something useful is not enough to carry my weight.
 

Regardless of the monk's somewhat arse-heavy level mentality, I still think that taking one level of monk can greatly enhance several classes.

This assumes that your DM has house ruled that silly 'no multiclassing' restriction.

Though this might be somewhat meta, just think about it for a moment.

Taking 1 level of monk gets you:

+2 on ALL saves
d8 hit die
improved unarmed strike (no weapon? punch 'em in the face!)
wis and dex to ac (better for wizards/sorcerers)
two natural weapons that deal 1d6 damage each
yet more weapon proficiencies
Evasion (!)
Stunning Attack
Flurry of Blows

To me... that's a HUGE amount of abilities for one level. Imagine a monk/wizard. More than average HD, higher saves all around, natural weapons, monk fighting abilities, and EVASION! How many wizards have died because they were on the recieving end of a fireball, or a lightning bolt, or a retributive strike?

Monks are far from being a weak class, IMO. They just aren't utilized properly.

-F
 

Femerus the Gnecro said:

Monks are far from being a weak class, IMO. They just aren't utilized properly.

Unless you campaign in the World of Lake Wobegon, one of the character classes is likely to be below average. Believe or not, special ops with regular inspections by metal detectors is a pretty narrow niche.

Most of those abilities you list off just aren't that helpful, except Evasion, unless you are a druid who likes to brawl. Should a wizard give up a high level spell for in order to slap someone for d6? I don't think so.

Taking one level of barbarian, paladin, ranger, rogue, or cleric also greatly enhance most classes. Nothing special about the monk there.
 

Well of course Evasion is pointless :rolleyes:

As is the Wisdom bonus to AC, which would be a boon to any spellcaster who chose to invest in a high Will Save, or even the bonus speed.

And hey, let's not forget the best saves, bar none. Yep, that's pretty terrible.

Come on. Metagaming aside, the monk is THE class in which to take a single level. I despise this idea, but Evasion alone is well worth it.

I don't think the monk sucks at any level, and from my experience with the class so far (about six monks ranging all over the level chart since the beginning of 3e), it works just fine.

That being said, I did mention I'd change a few things if it were up to me. Since I'm not a designer, it's not, and I won't :D

There can't be a perfect class, folks!

PS: Not sure about this, but couldn't a spellcaster combine a touch spell with Stunning Attack? Unless you interpret the Stunning Attack ability as being only useable as a standard action (which I don't), it should be feasible, and useful at low levels. Just an idle thought...
 
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