What's Up With The Monk?

[Hakkenshi]

Ki Strike does NOT give an actual enhancement bonus.

LokiDR, your points are well taken, and interesting. The only reason I had added fighter BAB was that it seemed the general idea of most monk detractors (in that the monk does not fight well enough).

I had also shown that class to my friends, and they said it was slightly underpowered because of the lack of SR and Improved Evasion. I countered by adding Mettle and fighter BAB.

Would you say the class would be balanced if it used standard monk unarmed BAB?

 

[Hakkenshi]

Oh, and as for your 7th-level monk, I did post a 10th-level one earlier in this thread, just downgrade it 3 levels if you wish. One thing I definitely would change against a party would be to give him an item that grants the Up the Wall feat at will to a nonpsionic. God, I love that feat!

Your party might really beat the monk, but they'd sure as hell remember that fight

PS: What's their level, BTW?

 

[Margaiaman]

On the subject of Poison

Don't forget, there are other prestige classes that use poison also. I know the gladiator is one (no alignment in the prerequisites) and so does the deepwood sniper (again no pre-conceived alignment for the class).

Just thought I'd through that in as an interesting observation.

 

[apsuman]

Ok, I have a challenge for all you monk lovers out there. I am running a game in a home brew low magic world. The PCs are most likely going to be trying to raid a catacomb. If some one can post a monk 7 using only core book and splat books, stanard money, I may change my idea. I think my players will slauter it, but I want to see if you people are on to something here. This challenge is for a monk without OA feats. I obviously don't play monks well, so post tatics if you could.

The party is a centar ranger/fighter 4, human wiz 6, human bard/barbiarian/rogue/royal explorer 6, monk/fighter 5, human rogue 5.

I can post the results of the fight after the next game session, on the 17th.

Level 7 monk, using point buy? Do we roll 4d6, drop the lowest?

g!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I'm curious to know to whom you're comparing the monk to make him seem so ineffectual. A rogue is the only other character that has a similar (possibly better) chance of *escaping* a grapple, and little chance of engaging in one. When a monk is grappling a character for several times 1d10, 1d12, or even 1d20+ damage in a round, I don't see what there is to complain considering that the target character is tied up as well.

The monk is definitely the best of the base classes at unarmed combat. I don't think anything in the system really goes against this.

YOU used the grapple rules as an example of the monk excellence. I am pointing out that Barbarians and Fighters who choose that path are comparable at unarmed combat to a monk, sometimes better, sometimes worse, just by spending a feat or two.

By the time a monk can roll d12 for damage a similar level fighter or barbarian is going to defeat him in an opposing grapple 75%-90% of the time based on BAB and Str differences, as well as having 50%-100% more hit points. Who cares if the monk is averaging more damage when he connects? It doesn't matter in the long run.

Monk touch AC? These guys will have +15 or better with their bare hands. I don't think there will be a problem getting the touch, although the AoO the monk gets when grappling begins might be. Of course, that AoO can be avoided by spending a feat or two.

Subdual damage is almost always sufficient and it is quite rare to need to fight unarmed. It is rarer still to need to do so against DR or other weird defenses. When would that happen? I am at a tea party and the golems invade? I think I will just pick up a table and use it as an improvised two-handed weapon and have someone cast Magic Weapon on it.

A monk who spends precious skill points on Escape Artist is implicitly accepting the role of party baggage. He has a number of actually useful skills to buy and scant points to do it with. Ever hear of Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Climb and Jump? Any PC of mine who finds out the monk is a superior escape artist is going to look for excuses to get that character kicked out of the party...

 

[LokiDR]

Level 7 monk, using point buy? Do we roll 4d6, drop the lowest?

g!

Sorry about that. Use 30 points to buy stats. I had PCs re-roll stats if they were really high, so I don't want to make really high powered NPCs.

I just might take up the suggestion of using the level 10 monk, deleveled. As for the Up The Wall feat for non-psionics, I don't want to slant the whole game in favor of this NPC. If it can be done by published magic items though, I'm all for it.

For me, the question here is whether a mid level monk can kick butt and otherwise be effective foil for the PCs without house-ruling. I don't mean he has to run in and mow them down. But this monk should at least be able to do something to deter the PCs from moving forward. If monk is as cool as some say it is, then this should be a very interesting fight. I am guessing he will just die.

 

[Hakkenshi]

A monk who spends precious skill points on Escape Artist is implicitly accepting the role of party baggage. He has a number of actually useful skills to buy and scant points to do it with. Ever hear of Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Climb and Jump? Any PC of mine who finds out the monk is a superior escape artist is going to look for excuses to get that character kicked out of the party...

Sure, in some twisted powergaming party that doesn't let people play what they want. Having a group where each character is a perfect complement to the others is unrealistic enough to strain even MY suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I have heard of those skills, but since I usually put a high score in Int, I never lack for skill points, and Escape Artist is one of the foremost on my list of skills.

As a matter of fact, the monk who uses Escape Artist is avoiding being a liability by not getting swallowed by every hungry creature that comes by. He also has better chances of freeing himself, then his comrades if he escapes bonds should the party get captured.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

Is it going to be one 7th monk against 5 characters (in which one has at least one monk leve)? Just curious if you're asking for a 5 on 1 fight or is he supposed to have some support?

 

[wolff96]

Ki strike only allows you to strike as if you had a magic weapon, not an actual bonus to hit and damage, right?

Originally posted by Hakkenshi
Ki Strike does NOT give an actual enhancement bonus.

These are both correct.

Cheiromancer and I were discussing HOUSE RULES for how to make monks more effective using the Ki Strike as an actual enhancement bonus.

One of the DMs I play under uses this houserule, with the Monk AC Bonus + 1 being the highest Damage Resistance that the monk can bypass.

Didn't mean to confuse anyone.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Alaric_Prympax's question is a good one. Tactics vary greatly if it's 5-on-1. If that is the case, I'd say:

1) No grappling; you'll get ganged up on and killed.
2) Tripping is good; it takes an action to get up, and Improved Trip makes you able to still deal damage.
3) If possible, use shuriken with stunning or paralytic poison from a distance, obviously on the weaker-looking members (as a foil for the characters, is he evil?).
4) Spring Attack a LOT, combine with Improved Trip.
5) Tumble is a must (but then you knew that, of course ).
6) Depending on which items you choose to keep (and IF you choose to use my version of the monk), Gloves of Rust on non-magical weapons and armour is lots of fun
(The only house-rule I'd add to that is that IMC we said that the Mending spell repairs rusted armour; we didn't want PCs to lose that precious scale mail at such low levels of wealth).
7) Surprise, surprise, surprise; with his movement, and with Hide and Move Silently, this is almost a given, but it's worth mentioning.

I'll add more suggestions if I think of any. Good luck!