What's Up With The Monk?

[apsuman]

First of all, listen is a class skill.

Second, I think the monk is fine as is, I too would add stuff if given the chance (but I think my list is much much shorter thanmost I have seen here).

Third, I accept the challenge. A lone (that means no henchmen) level 7 monk to challenge a party of 5 th level PCs. The only question is: do I equip him as a PC or as an NPC?


g!

 

[LokiDR]

......

Now, as to address the problem of different ideas of what a monk should be. Quite frankly, that's why I'd go with the bonus feats instead of a set of special abilities. This way you can customize your monk to what you'd like. You can go for stealth or power, weapons or grappling.

This would also simulate the different styles of martial arts. No one would confuse wushu with judo. If no two martial art styles are the same, then why are all monks?

3E gives you the choice with fighters to make a heavily armored, battle axe weilding tank, an archer, or a finessed swashbuckler. I just think that the same option should exist for monks.

I would much agree with a more customizable monk. But I also don't think that many of the standard spells work well for the monk. Spider climb, probably. Haste, maybe. anything evoke? no. illussion: not really. Maybe a host of new spells, or paladin spells cross over.

 

[Hakkenshi]

The only problem I see with that encounter is that ANY level 7 character would be fairly easy for a level 5 party to destroy. I've yet to see a situation where WotC's incredibly illogical NPC level-to-CR conversion works, and even with the handicap you've given the character, it's to be expected that he would lose (so would a level 7 barb, IMHO, but that's beside the point).

Likewise, I would never expect a level 5 (or level 7) character to take on a Troll.

Unfair? Nonsense.

Str is the usual primary stat for fighters and barbarians. It is perfectly fair to assume they put great effort into pumping it up. It would be silly for you to assume the monk's Str increases much over the same period; your monk is spending cash on Wis and Dex and probably Con. Granted, the monk's Str could be higher, but on the balance a 22 Str for a 12thish level fighter is conservative. I could very easily justify a higher value washing away the effect of whatever Str increase you think the monk should have had, making your complaint moot.

No, it was unfair in that you said the barbarian had a further bonus from a buff spell or potion, but you forgot to give the monk one. That makes a difference too.

I guess it's pointless to argue now. If you believe the monk sucks that adamantly, I don't expect to convince you at this point

Which is fine really. Leaves more monks for me to play!

But as for the important point here, namely the upcoming encounter, I strongly suggest that a character's level never, EVER be considered equivalent to his CR. I think Ridley's Cohort is right in that a Hill Giant is a more likely CR 7.

I think maybe two or three level 5 monks would prove a more accurate CR 7, and even then I'd find it low-challenge. If a level 5 party is normally able to take on a CR 5 without trouble, why is a level 5 character considered to be that same power level? It just doesn't make sense.

PS: One last point I forgot to mention: I don't believe that monks are the "kings of grapplers" when compared to monsters! Monsters are an entirely different matter. Now if you make a Balor monk...

 

[LokiDR]

First of all, listen is a class skill.

Second, I think the monk is fine as is, I too would add stuff if given the chance (but I think my list is much much shorter thanmost I have seen here).

Third, I accept the challenge. A lone (that means no henchmen) level 7 monk to challenge a party of 5 th level PCs. The only question is: do I equip him as a PC or as an NPC?


g!

yes, listen is class skill, but he probably just made a simple mistake.

As for your assertion that a monk is a perfectly viable class as is: we shall see. I have a fealing the monk previously posted will get slautered by the party in my game. If you have any ideas on this, feal free to post them.

 

[LokiDR]

The only problem I see with that encounter is that ANY level 7 character would be fairly easy for a level 5 party to destroy. I've yet to see a situation where WotC's incredibly illogical NPC level-to-CR conversion works, and even with the handicap you've given the character, it's to be expected that he would lose (so would a level 7 barb, IMHO, but that's beside the point).

Likewise, I would never expect a level 5 (or level 7) character to take on a Troll.

But as for the important point here, namely the upcoming encounter, I strongly suggest that a character's level never, EVER be considered equivalent to his CR. I think Ridley's Cohort is right in that a Hill Giant is a more likely CR 7.

I think maybe two or three level 5 monks would prove a more accurate CR 7, and even then I'd find it low-challenge. If a level 5 party is normally able to take on a CR 5 without trouble, why is a level 5 character considered to be that same power level? It just doesn't make sense.

PS: One last point I forgot to mention: I don't believe that monks are the "kings of grapplers" when compared to monsters! Monsters are an entirely different matter. Now if you make a Balor monk...

Any class, at level 7, should be a fight the PCs will win but with some costs. If monk is really as good as you say he is, then a monk lvl 7 should be able to inflict some real damage, just like a lvl 7 barbarian would, before dropping or running. The hill giant they just fought leveled every character that didn't die. That was a good challenge. The point of the CR system isn't to kill players, it is to challenge them.

This is not a debate of the CR system. I can think of several classes, at level 7, that could challenge the party. Wizard had just gotten 4th level spells. Ditto cleric. Fighters, well, fight, and from the rest of this thread they do it better than monks. Barbarians are just damage machines. Rogue could sneak them to death. What can a monk do? Other have said hit and fade, so we shall see.

If you don't think this a fair test, tell me. Who knows, maybe I'll wonder down to GenCon and see if I can't recruit a few volenteers to test this theory. But I planning the formal test for my next game session on the 17th.

 

[Forrester]

Trolling for feedback

On that note . . .

Would anyone here be interested in seeing a monk class that was forbidden from using magic items (or having beneficial spells cast on him)?

I've always hated two things about the 3E monk. The first was that they should preferably be bodybuilders . . . the 1E monk didn't apply his Strength damage bonus to melee strikes, and as stupid as that sounds, it was neat.

Doesn't work like that in 3E, obviously -- gotta have the muscles to be useful.

The second thing is the fact that a monk needs to load up on magic items -- ESPECIALLY Bracers of Armor -- to be useful. My vision of the monk isn't someone that needs his Amulet of Natural Armor and Belt of the Monk and Boots of Striding and Springing and Belt of Giant Strength and etc. etc. etc. in order to be effective for his level.

This is, in a word, silly. Yes, it's very 3E . . . but just doesn't have that monkly feel, y'know?

If you're interested, lemme know, and I'll send you a couple .rtf files. Looking for feedback, but it's not in an ideal format to post here.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

monk 7th level. human. 30 point buy, 4th level increase str.

str 16(18) dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 14(16) chr 8.
HP 49 AC 15(16) AB +12/9 or flurry +10/+10/+7, stunning blow fort save DC 16(mage meat)(AB assumes uses potion magic fang) movement 80 or 100 now with striding springing? damage 1d8+7.
feats doge, mobility, spring attack, improved initiative.
skills hide/sneak +12/+12 tumble/escape artist +10/+10 jump+10/ rest skills not important for the fight.
items potion greater magic fang +3, gloves of str+2, boots sriding springing combined elven kind, cloak elven kind, amulet +2 wis.

tactics are simple its his terain so he sets up the ambushes, unless the party can spot or listen in the 30's he gets surprise, he spring attacks gets out of sight then hides. He follows party until guard dropped(no more apparent readied acitons) wash and repeat. If there are traps like pit traps in the place he does a spring attack and leads the party to the trap, hopefully leaping over it before the party comes around the corner. If he is still in sight they will likely be so frustrated by now that they will charge without looking for traps.
If the party is in the pit trap the mage who likely is in the back and not charging ahead is now likely dead. One stun and flurry later=ouch.


Someone more knowledgeable of grapple maybe can answer this. Monk surprise round moves in for spring attack makes a grapple is it a full attack or not if only make one attempt, and not full bab attempt. If you grapple someone can you move with them. IOW could the monk jump in grab the mage and jump out in the surprise round. It's just a guess but I bet the party would follow the monk if he was dragging the wiz around by the ankles. If it is a full attack so can't be used with spring attack, anytime the monk rolls really well on initiative in the surprise round he might go for it anyways ciunting on getting 2 round sof acitons before the party moves to save him.

 

[Forrester]

monk 7th level. human. 30 point buy, 4th level increase str.

str 16(18) dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 14(16) chr 8.
HP 49 AC 15(16) AB +12/9 or flurry +10/+10/+7, stunning blow fort save DC 16(mage meat)(AB assumes uses potion magic fang) movement 80 or 100 now with striding springing? damage 1d8+7.
feats doge, mobility, spring attack, improved initiative.
skills hide/sneak +12/+12 tumble/escape artist +10/+10 jump+10/ rest skills not important for the fight.
items potion greater magic fang +3, gloves of str+2, boots sriding springing combined elven kind, cloak elven kind, amulet +2 wis.

Is it just me, or could you give the exact same (cheaty) collection of magic items to a barbarian and have him do far, far more damage? Sure, the Hide skill checks will be a few points lower, but the damage will be 2d6+10 (assume a Potion of Bull's Strength gives him +4 to strength, and he starts at 18, with a +1 Greatsword).

d8+7 vs 2d6+10. Attack bonus of the barbarian will be better, too. And he'll have an AC that's at least as good.

And he doesn't need to drink a 1350gp potion to do the job.

Yeah, that's one rockin' monk you have there.

Incidentally, how did you buy all that crap?
You have 19k to spend.

Amulet Wisdom: 4k
Gloves Strength: 4k
Boots Striding: 6.5k
Potion Fang +3: 1,350gp
Cloak, Boots: 4k

You're over.


(My proposed buy for 7th level barb, ability raise into Str)
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Chr 8)

+1 Greatsword for 2k
Potion of Bull's Strength for 300gp
Cloak Elvenkind: 2k
Boots: 6.5k

Save 7k for a rainy day. (Something to help with saves?)

Assuming I get a +4 on the potion, my attack bonus and damage is going to kick the monk's sorry ass. My AC is as good, my hp are far better. The only place I'm losing is having only half the ranks in Tumble and Hide . . . but those are hardly going to be as crucial.

 

[LokiDR]

monk 7th level. human. 30 point buy, 4th level increase str.

str 16(18) dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 14(16) chr 8.
HP 49 AC 15(16) AB +12/9 or flurry +10/+10/+7, stunning blow fort save DC 16(mage meat)(AB assumes uses potion magic fang) movement 80 or 100 now with striding springing? damage 1d8+7.
feats doge, mobility, spring attack, improved initiative.
skills hide/sneak +12/+12 tumble/escape artist +10/+10 jump+10/ rest skills not important for the fight.
items potion greater magic fang +3, gloves of str+2, boots sriding springing combined elven kind, cloak elven kind, amulet +2 wis.

tactics are simple its his terain so he sets up the ambushes, unless the party can spot or listen in the 30's he gets surprise, he spring attacks gets out of sight then hides. He follows party until guard dropped(no more apparent readied acitons) wash and repeat. If there are traps like pit traps in the place he does a spring attack and leads the party to the trap, hopefully leaping over it before the party comes around the corner. If he is still in sight they will likely be so frustrated by now that they will charge without looking for traps.
If the party is in the pit trap the mage who likely is in the back and not charging ahead is now likely dead. One stun and flurry later=ouch.


Someone more knowledgeable of grapple maybe can answer this. Monk surprise round moves in for spring attack makes a grapple is it a full attack or not if only make one attempt, and not full bab attempt. If you grapple someone can you move with them. IOW could the monk jump in grab the mage and jump out in the surprise round. It's just a guess but I bet the party would follow the monk if he was dragging the wiz around by the ankles. If it is a full attack so can't be used with spring attack, anytime the monk rolls really well on initiative in the surprise round he might go for it anyways ciunting on getting 2 round sof acitons before the party moves to save him.

I am with forrester here. I think you are pushing it.

First, items. The "gloves +2 str" should be "gauntlets of ogre power", but it is just a name. Next, you assume you can combine magic effects on items. This is the same as the magic brass knuckles idea. If it isn't published, then it is not available. That asside, the second power is double price (Tome and Blood, pg 79, **note). Also, potion of magic fang isn't really published, but I don't want to nitpick too much. After all, this monk is obviously friends with the elves.

The full spread:

potion greater magic fang +3, 1350
gloves of str+2, 4000
boots sriding springing combined elven kind, 10500 (6.5K + 2K*2)
cloak elven kind, 2000
amulet +2 wis. 4000

total cost: 21,850. With that much, I could hire a much higher level mercenary and kill all the PCs. wolff96 made what looked like a fleshed out monk on 7200, the proper amount for an NPC of that level. At the very most, the PC total of 19000 is the top.

Next, lets talk skills. You claim to ignore "anything not important". So this monk will ignore any advance scout the PCs send out? He obviously is only trying to beat things up. Remember, he is only trying to protect an item, not kill. A bard in his place might try to scare the PCs away, but only chose what a monk can do worse than a fighter: fight.

As far as your resulting skill totals, you obviously didn't figure in the cloak and boots of elvenkind. Strange, as you figured the temperary potion effects into the attack. I think listen, diplomacy, and swim could all be applied here. Hell, you might get funky and use profession: sieg engineer.

His move is 100 or 50. I have no idea where 80 came from. With the boots, it is 100.

Your tatics section is also lacking. In a catacomb, is there always a place to hide? With the dead bodies? His hide results are 23+, not 30+. His average is over 30, but that doesn't mean too much. How would this character use pit traps? Jump over them, then taunt the opposition? How is he going to deal with ranged characters? What kind of terrain would he use? How?

Overall, you tried to make a combat monster that should be a rogue by his tatics. Why make him a monk?

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On the grapple question, you can not spring attack in a surprize round because you don't have a full action, you have a partial action. Also, I am fairly certain you can not move while grappling.
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A general comment, Mr. O'Glase. Please use puctuation. If you are asking a question, end the question with "?". Please place periods at the ends of each of your thoughts. I had a hard time understanding your questions.

None of this response is intended to be mean, only to constructively point out flaws.

 

[Johno]

My experience as a DM with the monk:

The rest of the party was a Cleric of Obad-Hai, a Rogue, and a Ranger/Barbarian, and a Wizard.

The monk was very cool, often scouting ahead together with the rogue, providing him with a certain amount of backup should he get involved in a fight ahead of the rest. Both Tumbled around the battlefield causing much havoc.

I don't think the monk ever felt "useless". His high mobility enabled him to take advantage when distant enemies were held.

Both the monk and the rogue complained about lack of Strength. Both were a highly efficient team.

The most useless character was the Ranger/Barbarian.

This was until about 5th level, when they suffered almost TPK; only the rogue survived. The monk failed a Hold Person save and suffered the ignoble CDG death in the Moathouse (RttTEE). His failed save was probably the linch pin in what was the collapse of the party as an effective fighting force.

We used a 32 point buy.