What's Up With The Monk?

[Gizzard]

Is it just me, or could you give the exact same (cheaty) collection of magic items to a barbarian and have him do far, far more damage?

I had the same thought. Its not the Monk thats cool here; its any character with 18STR, magic Boots and Spring Attack.

Not to say that the Monk doesnt have advantages here; but a lot of them aren't exactly back-breaking. Monk moves 100', Barbarian moves 80'. Whee. Tumble is cross-class for the Barbarian. OK. And so on. So is it the Monk being cool or the Boots being cool?

I guess we'd find out the answer when the party kills the Monk and takes his Boots. ;-)

The only problem I see with that encounter is that ANY level 7 character would be fairly easy for a level 5 party to destroy.

I agree with this.

I suggested 5 level 5 Monks; which is (I think) CR9+; probably too much if you dont want it to be a climactic do-or-die fight. Three level 5 Monks is CR7+; I bet they would be a little more durable than the lone level 7'er.

Still, at level 5 the movement is unexceptional (40') and all the goodies that Monk fans seem to love are not yet available (Improved Trip etc.)

Perhaps two level 6 Monks at CR8? I really really dont think that two level 6 Monks can pose much of a threat; but I guess that extends to most classes. Its sort of separate from the issue of Monks sucking. (Which they still do. ;-)

 

[Hakkenshi]

Yes, my entire point on the question of the encounter was a level 7 character is a poor CR 7.

Have any level 7 character solo a Hill Giant, and the odds are generally in favour of the Giant. A character is generally not able to beat an encounter of a level equal to his own alone. It's extreme luck if he wins. My group and I tested many level 4 characters in single combat against a Minotaur, for example. Then a Carrion Crawler. Unless a spellcaster gets initiative, he's toast; if he does, he has about a 1-in-3 chance, I figure. Maybe less. And since your odds of winning decrease with the number of opponents...

Still, I'd love to see someone make a level 5 character that can take down a Troll all by his lonesome

I find that the best way to challenge my group is to have many lower-level opponents; otherwise, they gang up and bash. Two level 6 monks would make for a more challenging battle (depending on party status--you said they were injured already?).

And finally, yes, Boots of Striding and Springing benefit EVERYONE fairly equally, since more movement = good. Ki Straps are a much more monk-oriented item, and very useful at lower levels.

 

[apsuman]

I will make three monks, take your pick, or better yet throw them against your party individually.

I will equip them as PCs with 19,000gp of stuff. (unless someone tells me different).

g!

 

[LokiDR]

I had the same thought. Its not the Monk thats cool here; its any character with 18STR, magic Boots and Spring Attack.

Not to say that the Monk doesnt have advantages here; but a lot of them aren't exactly back-breaking. Monk moves 100', Barbarian moves 80'. Whee. Tumble is cross-class for the Barbarian. OK. And so on. So is it the Monk being cool or the Boots being cool?

I guess we'd find out the answer when the party kills the Monk and takes his Boots. ;-)



I agree with this.

I suggested 5 level 5 Monks; which is (I think) CR9+; probably too much if you dont want it to be a climactic do-or-die fight. Three level 5 Monks is CR7+; I bet they would be a little more durable than the lone level 7'er.

Still, at level 5 the movement is unexceptional (40') and all the goodies that Monk fans seem to love are not yet available (Improved Trip etc.)

Perhaps two level 6 Monks at CR8? I really really dont think that two level 6 Monks can pose much of a threat; but I guess that extends to most classes. Its sort of separate from the issue of Monks sucking. (Which they still do. ;-)

Hmm, I seem to be out voted on the subject of how many monks to use. This is kinda funny, as it is my game , but maybe I'll change my mind yet. Here is my thinking:

If the monk class is viable as a fun class in D&D, I believe there are some points the class needs, same as any class. The first and formost is "ability to be heroic". Without this, no class can be generally considered fun. Even in Tome and Blood, when talking about spell selection, they say you could be very usefull to the party with spells like teleport, but that just wouldn't be much fun.

The reason I originally said 1 level 7 monk is to answer the question: are monk's just support characters? A pair of monks are just supporting each other, and only shows that monks work well in groups. To be fun, I think the monk needs to be able to stand alone first. A cleric, wizard, or rogue all could. Even a bard could do a passable job in this case. What can a lone monk do?

I know that a well played group of any 5 5th level characters would kill most of the PCs, because the NPCs can be min-maxed for this situation, I can make sure they work together, and they are set for the PCs.

 

[LokiDR]

Yes, my entire point on the question of the encounter was a level 7 character is a poor CR 7.

Have any level 7 character solo a Hill Giant, and the odds are generally in favour of the Giant. A character is generally not able to beat an encounter of a level equal to his own alone. It's extreme luck if he wins. My group and I tested many level 4 characters in single combat against a Minotaur, for example. Then a Carrion Crawler. Unless a spellcaster gets initiative, he's toast; if he does, he has about a 1-in-3 chance, I figure. Maybe less. And since your odds of winning decrease with the number of opponents...

Still, I'd love to see someone make a level 5 character that can take down a Troll all by his lonesome

I find that the best way to challenge my group is to have many lower-level opponents; otherwise, they gang up and bash. Two level 6 monks would make for a more challenging battle (depending on party status--you said they were injured already?).

And finally, yes, Boots of Striding and Springing benefit EVERYONE fairly equally, since more movement = good. Ki Straps are a much more monk-oriented item, and very useful at lower levels.

A CR7 means an even challenge for a party of 7th level. This has nothing to do with a character at level X in a one-on-one with a monster of CR X. Could the hill giant sneak into a camp and steal an item undected? D&D isn't always about combat. A rogue that keeps sneak attacking the party could do just as much damage as the hill giant (maybe more), just in a different way.

CR is not Character Level Equivilant. It is a Challenge Rating.

 

[Hakkenshi]

A CR7 means an even challenge for a party of 7th level. This has nothing to do with a character at level X in a one-on-one with a monster of CR X. Could the hill giant sneak into a camp and steal an item undected? D&D isn't always about combat. A rogue that keeps sneak attacking the party could do just as much damage as the hill giant (maybe more), just in a different way.

CR is not Character Level Equivilant. It is a Challenge Rating.

My point exactly, which is why I think a level 7 monk should not be considered CR 7. A CR 7 creature should be on a relatively equal basis with another CR 7 creature, which a single character never is.

 

[Hejdun]

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On the grapple question, you can not spring attack in a surprize round because you don't have a full action, you have a partial action. Also, I am fairly certain you can not move while grappling.
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A general comment, Mr. O'Glase. Please use puctuation. If you are asking a question, end the question with "?". Please place periods at the ends of each of your thoughts. I had a hard time understanding your questions.

I don't know about you, but I've seen far worse spelling and punctuation (or lack there-of) on the internet before. I personally had no trouble understanding what he was saying. If you are going to nit pick about English, that's a fairly odd example, in my not-so-humble opinion. I would personally save my breath for the people who post like this:

"hel0 guyz this iz my 1firstest post and i wanna know do u think this feat over powerz the otherz plz respond yo"

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think it is well worth the time to pay attention to grammar and spelling. At least if you want people to pay attention to you.

There are, as a matter of fact, some posters on these boards whom I routinely ignore because their grammar and spelling is atrocious.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

The party is a centar ranger/fighter 4, human wiz 6, human bard/barbiarian/rogue/royal explorer 6, monk/fighter 5, human rogue 5.

I've got a few of questions concerning this party, sorry if any of these seem stupid:

1. Is this a 5th level party? Although I see a 4th level character I see two 6th characters along with two 5th level characters.

2. I thought CR's were based for 4 member parties? I see 5 here.

3. Not that it matters much (except in feats and skill points) but what race is the monk/fighter 5 (or did I miss that in a post somewhere)?

Or am I just being stupid/ignorant concerning CR's here?

 

[LokiDR]

I think it is well worth the time to pay attention to grammar and spelling. At least if you want people to pay attention to you.

There are, as a matter of fact, some posters on these boards whom I routinely ignore because their grammar and spelling is atrocious.

It's not the worse, but I was on a role nitpicking, so I just kinda spilled over. There were some good comments and thoughts in the post (boots of elven striding and springing) so I didn't want to ignore it. Also, it is important to know that you are doing something wrong so you can fix it. (see "rouge" post a few pages back)