What's Up With The Monk?

[S'mon]

S'mon, your campaign sounds pretty cool

Thanks - you can find the saga of the monks Chin Li, Renegade Guardian of Crane's Palace, and Cedric Quezada at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/5955/Borderlands.htm

Note that they were the two only PCS from the group who survived that campaign! For much of it the sorcerer Drake was the most powerful PC, he was a level or so higher, but when the Sh*t hit the fan it was the monks who escaped to fight another day, and win.

 

[LokiDR]

Ok,

After an iffy net connection, I have finally come up with my first (with possible alternatives to follow) level 7 monk.

.....

After this monk is picked apart (which I am sure it will be) I will post alternatives.


g!

I have no intention of picking your character apart .

Here are few observations though, on how your character sheds light on the monk class. First, you chose a monk centered item, the monk belt. This means that there must be some use for monk centered items. Secondly, you are using you the monks mobility in a new way, incorporating web. You could easily move through the whole web without a problem. The magic kama is a nice touch, proving that monks don't need to use their fists.

I do see a few holes, some have already been mentioned. First: fire. Without web, you are back to a not so good fighter, and the web is removed prety easily. Next, the DC is pretty low to avoid web. Third, you can get away, but +12 is much narrower margin to hide by (most of the PCs have ranks in spot). Haste may well even the odds, and I would definately put this monk as better than the one posted by wolff96, but then you spent 1.5 times more money.

My bet on this monk: the party takes a casulty, the monk runs, the monk gets slautered when he comes back.

 

[LokiDR]

A CR 7 should take 25% of a party of 4 level 7 characters resources. I think a party of 5 with an average level of 5.2 plus the centaur character are pretty close to that level of power. So, seeing if my monk takes 20-25% of their resources would be the test.

g!

This is a CR 7 (higher maybe for not having NPC listed money) against an APL 5.2 party. If the party only uses 20-25% of its resources, this is a failed challenge. The party should use 35-50%, I would think, based on the difference between the APL and the CR. This does not even figure in the fact that the monk knows (and will use) the terain to his advantage. I expect this fight to be hard for the PCs, but win-able. If they just shrug off the monk, I will still believe that monks are weak.

 

[misttar]

Something that I have really noticed in the campaigns that I have either been in or close friends have been in, the monk is the MASTER of one thing survival.

This means that in a game where characters are generally not going to die alot, this strength just isn't that important. But in some campaigns, characters drop like flies. This is where monks really shine.

I really noticed this when talking to a friend that believes that monks are actually WAY to powerful. After talking to him I noticed one really important thing about the campaign that he was in. They averaged a character death every 3-4 encounters. They usually got in about 6-8 encounters per session, so they had a character death or two every timed they played. Now even with the fact that they had good access to resurrection magics, this means that the non-monks where out of the game alot more often.

Funny thing is, the worst combat character was the one that just HAD to play a Half-orc barbarian. So far he has died thirteen times in that campaign, died four times in one session. Sure he could deal out 3 times the damage in a round. But that didn't mean squat when you where out of alot of the combats all together.

If it matters, the other classes in this game:

Fighter/Duelist (super AC man)
Mage/Monk (super Magicly AC man)
Barbain/Frenzyed Berserker (Death magnet)
Monk/1st level mage
Cleric War/Destruction Domains
Wizard/Arcane Order/Incantrix

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Something that I have really noticed in the campaigns that I have either been in or close friends have been in, the monk is the MASTER of one thing survival.

This means that in a game where characters are generally not going to die alot, this strength just isn't that important. But in some campaigns, characters drop like flies. This is where monks really shine.

Sure, I know that monks are playable when you get up in levels.

But surviving is not necessarily helpful to the other PCs in the party. The barbarian death magnet might well have been killed a lot less often if he had a couple buddies who were actually dish out some damage to take some pressure off him. I note you had three defensive minded characters in the party. No wonder the barbarian died so often...he was carrying the lion's share of the risk. That is obvious from the party makeup.

If I were playing the Barbarian, I would have given up on that character and played a rogue or archer. Those monks may not have looked so good then.

 

[LokiDR]

I think this only reinforces the point that monks only really shine in a few situations that most of us don't run into often. High death and over the top challenges call for a character who can run away. Monk rocks.

Still, you have to be levels above every one else to be just as effective, is it really a good class? I personally don't like high death games, so YMMV.

 

[apsuman]

I have no intention of picking your character apart .

Here are few observations though, on how your character sheds light on the monk class. First, you chose a monk centered item, the monk belt. This means that there must be some use for monk centered items. Secondly, you are using you the monks mobility in a new way, incorporating web. You could easily move through the whole web without a problem. The magic kama is a nice touch, proving that monks don't need to use their fists.

I do see a few holes, some have already been mentioned. First: fire. Without web, you are back to a not so good fighter, and the web is removed prety easily. Next, the DC is pretty low to avoid web. Third, you can get away, but +12 is much narrower margin to hide by (most of the PCs have ranks in spot). Haste may well even the odds, and I would definately put this monk as better than the one posted by wolff96, but then you spent 1.5 times more money.

My bet on this monk: the party takes a casulty, the monk runs, the monk gets slautered when he comes back.

Ok, I chose the monk's belt for two reasons. First there are some individuals that would call other items cheats. The monk's belt has two uses for a monk, first one extra stunning attack a day , whoopie-do, and 10 consecutive rounds of haste. Which takes me to the second reason, it was the haste I was going for. I did not want to have a bunch of one use items, that seemed would ruin the flavoer of the challenge. Otherwise just fill up a bunch of potions of haste. Basically, I was trying to make a completely playable monk.

The feats I chose do not match the magic items exactly, I think this mimics the rate and type of magic items normal characters gather. Also, as I stated, for the monk's belt I could have purchased, bracers of armor +1, an amulet of natural armor +1, a ring of protection +1, and either gloves of DEX or a pearl of WIS +2. This would have resulted in a +4 to my AC and extra skill points for well used skills. Clearly this monk was not optimized for the encounter, for the catacombs, or for individual combat.

To continue, sure fire is a problem, it's also free damage for me. The web slows down everyone so much that the monk gets to pick where to fight. The guy with the torch might just be the one to go after first. Also, web is very useful, if you make the save and fighter types with a dex of mod of +1 will have a total of +3 to save against the web at DC 13. So half the time they would fail. That removed the immediate threat of half the fighter types. But even if you make your save you are still surrounded by webs. Simple movement requires you to be entangled. If you made your save the monk could bull rush you into more web. I would DM that attacking the monk in the web would entangle your character. I think it would be a hoot to grapple an opponent in the web while you were free to move.

The only reason the kama is there is because the designers made it impossible for the monk to damage DR creatures, really +1 at level 10! But really the kama takes away 2000 gold that could really have been used elsewhere. I think this clearly demonstrates that this monk is not optimized.

And, as for the money, I asked twice if I should equip this character as a PC or as an NPC. Hearing no answer, I spent the 19000 gp suggested byt the DMG for a PC.

g!

 

[Gizzard]

The barbarian death magnet might well have been killed a lot less often if he had a couple buddies who were actually dish out some damage to take some pressure off him.

Actually, most of the characters in that party should be able to take a turn in the front line. Most notably the Fighter/Duelist, but even the War/Destruction Cleric is probably optimized for fighting rather than healing.

I dont know why the Barbarian would get killed a lot more than anyone else; with a 40' move he has a fair amount of mobility. Perhaps it was a RP thing, "Krusk stay in front line until all foes are smashed!"

Tangent: One of my favorite things about our partys half-Orc Barbarian is that he RPs both the bravery and cowardice of his Orc half. When then are going well, he's up in the front lines hacking, slashing and gloating. But if the situation looks anything but rosy he's calling for Healing and he's keeping an eye on his escape route. ;-)

 

[apsuman]

This is a CR 7 (higher maybe for not having NPC listed money) against an APL 5.2 party. If the party only uses 20-25% of its resources, this is a failed challenge. The party should use 35-50%, I would think, based on the difference between the APL and the CR. This does not even figure in the fact that the monk knows (and will use) the terain to his advantage. I expect this fight to be hard for the PCs, but win-able. If they just shrug off the monk, I will still believe that monks are weak.

The party in question has 5 members, and I always thought that the CR was "designed" (guesstimated is a better word) for a party of 4. Adding in a fifth character opens up many doors for the party. And their levels are 5,5,5,6,6 but the Centaur is more of a benefit than and hinderance, I would think that alone is worth another level.

Anyway, I expect the party to win. I would expect the party to win if I designed a 7th level barbarian, or bard, or fighter, or rogue, etc. The difference is that I think the monk could also survive this encounter, because when it is really bad he has the mobility to get out of there, everyone else is slow enough to be tracked down and killed. Viola! a recurring villian.

g!

 

[apsuman]

I think this only reinforces the point that monks only really shine in a few situations that most of us don't run into often. High death and over the top challenges call for a character who can run away. Monk rocks.

How do you think this reinforces that the monk only does well in certain circumstances? Other than a wizard who at level seven can cast that same web spell from afar and the pelt the party with cones of cold, lighning bolts, acid arrows, while flying above them, what level 7 character would be effective against this party/challenge?

g!