What's Up With The Monk?

[Hammerhead]

However, an Amulet of Mighty Fists costs THREE TIMES the amount of a similar +1 Sword/Axe/Hammer. A fighter can "buy" a +5 weapon for about the same cost as the monk can "buy" a +3 Amulet. And, the amulet takes up a slot. Also, considering the amulet of mighty fists isn't core D&D...

And actually, an AoO will stop a monk trying to grapple, assuming it hits.

Also, many of the fighter's "Will save problems" can be negated by a simple Protection from Evil spell.

The reason a monk needs high stats are because they need high Wisdom for AC and cool abilities, high Dex for AC, high Strength for hitting and damaging, a decent Con for hit points, and a decent Int for skill points, for Tumble, Jump, Listen, etc. Fighters need high Str and Con, decent Dex and Int (in case they want Whirlwind attack), and a decent Wis. If they don't want Whirlwind/Expertise, they can drop the Int; it's not like they get good skills anyway.

And while a monk may benefit from great maneuverability, the fly spell, a staple for most groups, gives the same speed as a high level monk, and infinite jumping power (kind of). Makes the monk look kind of foolish for concentrating so much on movement, eh?

 

[Hakkenshi]

Actually, no, it doesn't. Cast Dispel Magic on all those characters, and the monk is STILL as mobile. Take away their equipment, and the monk is STILL as mobile.

The Amulet of Mighty Fists is the least item that could help a monk. Give him an item that casts Magic Weapon (or its Greater counterpart) three times per day. Not that expensive.

And I don't allow my players to buy magic items, so having the monk FIND an Amulet of Mighty Fists (say, on the corpse of an enemy monk) is really not a problem.

Monk Tattoos, from Magic of Faerûn...those are cool
They don't help immensely, but they still rock. And instead of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, make up a new item called the Amulet of Sure Striking, and give it the Sure Striking enhancement. It'll cost a lot less than a fighter's +5 weapon, won't give the enhancement bonus, but WILL go through DR. Problem solved.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: It's how it's presented

Concering the 'Exotic' Weapons/Items for the monk:

Matt because the Monk is considered a base class the fantasy game intertwines the Oriental nor European Fantasies. If you want realism in your European Fantasy Based campaign then just exclude the Monk class period. IMO because the Monk class is a base class then it's weapons may be exotic for every other character but they are not for the monk class. In effect a sword may be a martial weapon and usable by a fighter but not the wizard (unless an elf). So no one else can use a Kama without the Exotic Weapon Feat, a Sorerer can't use a Long Sword without Martial Weapon Feat. If you include Monks in your campaign then include items for it.

Note that there are a couple of monk weapons on the 'Common Melee weapons' list in the DMG. I don't think that's an accident.

FWIW, Matt, I think that your solution - giving the monk access to 'western' weapons that can be used with their abilities - is probably the best one for your game. (I personally think it's ridiculous that monks can't use their better attack rate with a quarterstaff anyway.)

J

 

[Hakkenshi]

FWIW, Matt, I think that your solution - giving the monk access to 'western' weapons that can be used with their abilities - is probably the best one for your game. (I personally think it's ridiculous that monks can't use their better attack rate with a quarterstaff anyway.)

I second that. Long live the kung-fu fighting Benedictine monks!

But seriously, the bo and the naginata are both weapons used heavily by Oriental monks. Why were quarterstaves and spears excluded from the monk weapon list???

 

[GravyFingerz]

What's the deal with the monk? I mean, why not just buy a gun and put your time to better use? And what's with the hair? They either shave it ALL off... or only halfway back. Is it because they can't see the backs of their heads in the mirrors? Can you not see that you still have a half a head full of hair? Don't get me started on their little shoes. Those things have NO arch protection.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is the funnies spiel I've heard in monthes!!!!!

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

However, an Amulet of Mighty Fists costs THREE TIMES the amount of a similar +1 Sword/Axe/Hammer. A fighter can "buy" a +5 weapon for about the same cost as the monk can "buy" a +3 Amulet. And, the amulet takes up a slot. Also, considering the amulet of mighty fists isn't core D&D...

Sorry the core rules include rules for creating brand new never seen before magic items. So saying amulets of magic fists aren't core is bunk IMO. They do cost a lot, though I'd likely see a monk with just that for magic weapons, while I'd virtually never see a fighter with just one magic weapon. He'd likely have one magic weapon mellee a magic weapon backup and a ranged magic weapon. A monk can and will fit his role with just one magic attack booster a fighter wont. And considering it applies to all his natural attacks this is a powerful item.

 

[Phowett]

I don't see anything wrong with the Monk yet. The monk that I had played did as much damage as our group's fighter did and hit just as often. And my +2 Nunchakus really helped me out when I faced those undead.

 

[Gizzard]

OK, heres a totally different angle on this thing.

When I played a Wizard under 2E, I always felt like I had something useful to do. Even when I was first level and had one friggen spell. I'd save my daily spell and try and use it judiciously to the parties best advantage. Then after that, I could fall back secondary tricks like ducking in and out of combat to trying to take some pressure off the fighters. Or using a Sling or handful of Darts. As I grew in levels, my options got more and more diverse; it seemed like the ability to do something interesting with the character was constantly expanding.

But, up to 5th level as a Monk, I feel like I seldom have anything useful to do. I am pretty Tank-y with Mage Armor on, so again, I can take pressure off the real fighters by distracting less intelligent monsters. Whee. And my contribution of a couple points of damage here and there is never a bad thing. Whee. I can Tumble everywhere and provide Flanking bonuses or get in a position to protect squishy mages. Useful, maybe even heroic in the right circumstances. I have cool skills and special abilities that others do not (mostly because we have no Rogue). Ok then. Is that all there is to this character?

I think this sums up what mattcolville was originally getting at. A Monk can do a lot of vaguely useful things, but where is something Heroic for him to do?

A Barbarian will go toe-to-toe with a Troll and win; a Cleric will bring a shattered party back to full health; a Wizard will cast an array of useful or deadly spells. A Thief will disarm a Trap, and more than occassionally deal out the sort of Sneak Attack damage that a Monk can only dream of.

So, why would you want to play a Monk over the mainline character classes? Or more to the point, if you are adventuring with two Monks will you always be frowning and wishing that one was a Fighter and the other a Rogue instead?

 

[Gizzard]

And my +2 Nunchakus really helped me out when I faced those undead.

OK, is it my imagination or is everyone who is enjoying being a Monk a lot higher level than 5th?

People talking about getting d12 or d20 damage (12th level, 16th level), Improved Tripping their opponents (6th level) or using Ki Strike (10th level). Or, carrying a +2 Nunchaku or an Amulet that would cost more than my entire party has seen in their adventuring careers.

I cant debate whether a Monk is useful at high levels; I havent tried it. But I can tell you whats special about the Monk at low levels - he sucks even more than the Bard. (Actually, now that the Bard has healing spells, the Monk sucks *much* more than the Bard. ;-)

 

[hong]

The other option you have is fixing the ridiculous notion that monks aren't trained to use quarterstaffs and spears to their fullest potential.

They're not, unless you mean via multiclassing.

But the argument that strikes me the most in this thread is that monks can't do damage unarmed! I'd love to see whose fighter can attack as many times a round with a weapon that does a d12 damage! Or, better yet, d20! A monk's offensive capabilities are right up there with the fighters' if he's built correctly. What stats are you using, all 12s?

By the time the monk is doing d12+4 or d20+5 damage, the fighter can be doing 4d6+20, and will probably have a better attack bonus to boot. In terms of raw damage-dealing potential, the fighter is nearly always going to come out in front. As has been stated, the monk's schtick isn't in terms of physical combat, any more than it is the rogue's or wizard's.