What's Up With The Monk?

[mattcolville]

I'm noticing two things about the two monks in my game.

A: They suck. This seems primarily due to the fact that they just can't dish out that much damage. Their special abilities are cool, but they're kinda passive. They mostly work along the lines of "it's hard to screw them."

B: They suck. This seems in part due to the fact that, without magic, the Monk can't do much against A: incorporeal undead, B: creatures that need magic weapons to hit them. Eventually, the Monk can hit things that require magic, but it's at 10th level. They're right now fighting things like Stone Golems and Shadows that require magic weapons.

Ok, so the first question the party has about your new character. "Are you a front line combatant?" They ask this because they've lost many characters to the fact that they're a party of 6 with 1, often no, fighter /ranger /paladin /barbarian and it makes the going tough. If the answer is no, they want to know "Then what good are you?"

Thief: I'm the thief
Bard: I can buff everyone pretty well. Oh, and I've got a wide array of other useful abilities; some thief, some sorcerer, and I'm handy with a rapier.
Mage: I'm the Mage
Cleric: I'm the Cleric

Monk: I don't use weapons. No, I don't cast spells. Or heal people. Or disarm traps or do anything else particularly well.

Two things made me start thinking about this; obviously the fact that two of my players are running Monks is half of it. The other half is that another player is a Fighter 1/Forsaker 4. He can already hit things as though he weapons were +2. WTF?

Anyone else think this is wonky? Is there something we're not doing right?

 

[Olive]

I'm having my first experiences with a monk at the moment and the player is facing some of the same qualms... basically that he can't hit anything very well, or take the damage he needs to take.

also tho, i've heard lots of people say that they regard the forsaker as totally overpowered, so maybe the problem isn't that monks suck, but that forsakers should suck more!

 

[alsih2o]

i think you are applying a more traditional mindset to a monk oriented party.

with 2 monks, are you handing out +1 nunchukas( or staves? or other funky monky weapons?) at the same rate as +1 swords?

if balanced by the g.m. it is my opinion that the monk can be just as badbutted as most.

(edit: a-they suck, b:they suck...that IS funny imo)

 

[Crothian]

Many people can't seem to play a good monk. THey have great skill selection. They do seem to need higher attributes.

Personally, the monk in my last game was a better fighter then the barbarian. THe sheer number of attacks garunteed he hit every round. THe great saves made him fearless, and the abilities are great.

 

[Zerovoid]

Two things made me start thinking about this; obviously the fact that two of my players are running Monks is half of it. The other half is that another player is a Fighter 1/Forsaker 4. He can already hit things as though he weapons were +2. WTF?

How can you be a Fighter1/Forsaker4? Forsaker needs Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will, and none of those are on the fighter bonus feat list.

 

[Romotre]

I don't think monks suck. Try some OA n' such feats. Improved grabble, expert tactiain, defensive throw, choke hold. Or maybe some old fasioned feats like spring attack. Try some magic items from sword & fist like the amulet that enchants a monks fists, or ki straps (+5 stunning DC). I have a house rule that allow monks to take fighter levels and have the base attack granted from them to stack with unarmed bab, but they have to give up all the weapon and armor profs. this bab will never grant them extra attack though. not that monks would want them (the profs), but it still means they can't get the cool monk/prestige class abilitiies until later.

 

[Avatar_V]

The inerty object

LoL, the monk in the game I DM is a halfling with an incredible dex, great hide/ms and poor spot. He calls himself 'The inert object'. Nothing can hit him; he can hit nothing, Nothing can see him; he can see nothing. It's pretty funny. Personally, I think it's not terribly unbalanced. Sure the fighter dishes out some massive damage, but how many times has the cleric had to rush to yank bolts out of the fighter's chest just hps away from -10? Many. Meanwhile the monk stays happily out of the way tossing his shurikens doing a nice steady trickle of sure damage.

 

[Hejdun]

My party will likely agree with you. Their opinion is that as a monk is a front line fighter, they have:

1. Bad attack bonus.
2. Bad damage.
3. Bad AC (Unless you have lots of magic)
4. Bad hit points.
5. Are VERY stat dependant.

At higher levels their abilities kind of ease the pain, but at levels lower than 10, it's pure agony.

 

[CRG]

I like the monk. I have one complaint that is easily remedied via house rules, though.

They can't use staves or other weapons with their unarmed rate. Sure, I can see that you want to limit the list to as few items as possible - they are going to get wicked numbers of attacks.

However, I think what it really accomplished is making everyone think that monks *MUST* use unarmed attacks ALWAYS. There is nothing saying that your monk has to get his furious flurry on every critter. And frankly, with the monk's maneuverability and dodge-tumble survivability, you can get most places quickly and easily. With spring attack, you can get to most places, attack once and then leave again without much problem.

So, I think the biggest drawback to the monk is that wacky-no-one-else-can-do-this-unarmed thing that makes alot of monk players think I-can't-use-any-weapon. Simply not true.

And not to go even more heretical, but TECHNICALLY a mithril buckler (with no arcane spell failure percentage) DOES NOT impact their special abilities or the wisdom-based armor. Also, TECHNICALLY if your wisdom + class AC bonus is not very high, there is nothing saying that decent leather armor (with a relatively low arcane spell failure) couldn't be used.

Just don't think you must ONLY do unarmed...

 

[ForceUser@Home]

The monk in my OA campaign is doing fine. Keep in mind that monk weapons exist to circumvent the ki strike problem. There is no reason why a 6th level monk can't keep a +1 kama handy in case he needs to penetrate damage reduction.

It's been said before - monks shine at higher levels. The guy in my game is going to become a tattooed monk (a PrC from OA), and looking at his feat progression (improved grapple/earth's embrace/etc) and his tatto selections (wasp/tiger/dragon/lion/scorpion), he's going to kick some butt. Not like a fighter, no, but he will be shutting some people down. The player is a tactical genius and I've seen him play a monk before. His old monk was absurdly cool; I can't wait to watch the new one blossom.

I remember when, at 4th level or so, a bad guy inside a border fort had leapt upon a hippogriff and begun to take off into the sky, escaping our party. This guy's monk sprinted to the wall, bounded it in a single leap, charged up to the hippogriff, springboarded himself off a wagon, caught air, and tackled the guy off the flying horse. It was one of the coolest moves I have yet seen in D&D, and nobody but a smart player running a monk could have done it at 4th level.