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What's Up With The Monk?

Hakkenshi said:


Sure, in some twisted powergaming party that doesn't let people play what they want. Having a group where each character is a perfect complement to the others is unrealistic enough to strain even MY suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I have heard of those skills, but since I usually put a high score in Int, I never lack for skill points, and Escape Artist is one of the foremost on my list of skills.

As a matter of fact, the monk who uses Escape Artist is avoiding being a liability by not getting swallowed by every hungry creature that comes by. He also has better chances of freeing himself, then his comrades if he escapes bonds should the party get captured.

Yeah, what Hakkenshi said. :D

I treat Int as the second or third most important stat for every one of my characters. I need those skill points! A lot of skill points adds much more role playing to the characters in the games that I DM or am a PC. And no one in my group tells another what skills a character should take. Believe it or not we had a 4th Rogue (10 Int) that had no skill ranks in Search! I'm not kidding, but after one adventure when he set off every trap (they weren't lethal) he maxed it out his next level up; but no one told him he had to put skill points in Search. The Rogue was not their character.
 

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Well, wolff96, you'll notice I used your house rule in my write-up of the monk, above. I'll give you the credit here, since I forgot it then :D

It IS a very good idea.
 

Alaric_Prympax said:
Is it going to be one 7th monk against 5 characters (in which one has at least one monk leve)? Just curious if you're asking for a 5 on 1 fight or is he supposed to have some support?

A CR 7 (7th level monk) is supposed to be a challenge for the party of APL ~5. I have no illusions of a CR 7 beating the party over all, but if they are weakend from earlier encounters (some very annoying constuct versions of arrow hawks) this monk should be able to take on or two down. I would call that a success.
 

First, I have to say that I don't understand the debate of poison versus lawful alignment. I could see people arguing good vs evil, but the opposite of lawful isn't illegal, but chaotic. You don't mean to tell me that a lawful evil character can't use poison?

Now, since others have suggested it, here's my take on how to "fix" the monk.

First, I'd do away with the alignment restrictions. I'm still trying to figure out the concept of a lawful drunken master.

I'd also consider getting rid of the multi-classing restricitons.

Next, while I'd keep the BAB at its current state, I'd open up the list of monk weapons. All simple weapons should be allowed, as well as several martial ones (short and longsword, but not greatsword, for example).

Now, as to the common low AC problem, I'd allow the monk to use light armor and shields. I've seen kung-fu movies with monks wearing a little armor or using shields, so I don't believe it's out of line.

Now, as to how the use of armor would work with the wis bonus to AC, my take would be to take a cue from the Iaijutsu Master from OA. Allow the wis bonus, but only when not wearing armor. It might seem a little unbalanced to some, but remember that the armor use would eliminate the need for the AC bonus of the class, which would be dropped.

Also, the ability to wear armor would mean that most players wouldn't pump up their wis to such high levels, instead focusing on either their str or dex.

Next, I'd do away with flurry of blows and the unarmed BAB, and simply grant the monk two-weapon fighting for free at first level.

I'd also open the class up to maximum customization. OA already allows monks to swap out certain class abilities in favor of certain feats. What I would do is follow the example of the Inkyo in Rokugan and make all of the abilities bonus feats.

Like the Inkyo (and fighter), these feats would be true bonus feats selected from a list and not a choice between an ability and a feat (this would allow the monk to focus on being a weapon user, unarmed fighter, or grappler, or try for a martial arts mastery found in OA).

Stunning attack, deflect arrows, improved trip, and quivering palm all exist as feats in the PHB, OA, or Rokugan. Also, slow fall can be dropped in favor of the option of taking the break fall feat from Spycraft.

Now, I'd address the much needed niche of the monk. Since the monk is all about mastery of the mind and body, I'd continue to allow monks their SR. Also, I'd not only allow them to keep their bonus against enchantments, but give them an equal bonus against illusions, as well (although, off-hand, I can't recall if illusion are covered in SR).

Finally, continuing with the concept of the monk's niche, I'd eliminate timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, leap of the clouds, empty body, and perfect self and instead allow the monks access to a select number of spell at higher levels, much like the ranger does now.

These spells could only be cast upon themselves and also would be limited to physical and mental enhancements, such as jump, bull strength, spider climb, undetectable alignment, mind blank, etc..

This would allow the monk to perform superhuman feats of body and mind and simulate the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon style of martial artist.

Now, while the spells would allow the monk a wider range of abilities, they would be limited in uses per day, as well as which ones they choose to use (much like spells, you may end up regretting taking jump, but not mind blank that day).
 

Hakkenshi said:

Sure, in some twisted powergaming party that doesn't let people play what they want. Having a group where each character is a perfect complement to the others is unrealistic enough to strain even MY suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I have heard of those skills, but since I usually put a high score in Int, I never lack for skill points, and Escape Artist is one of the foremost on my list of skills.

As a matter of fact, the monk who uses Escape Artist is avoiding being a liability by not getting swallowed by every hungry creature that comes by. He also has better chances of freeing himself, then his comrades if he escapes bonds should the party get captured.

If you don't have a good Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, then your assertion that monks are better at even unarmed combat than a Fighter or Barbarian is laughable. Yes, laughable.

It is nice to know you play a monk with a high Str, Dex, Con, Wis AND INT. Clearly I have nothing to teach you about powergaming. I can't compete with your loaded dice.
 

Whoa...I *really* don't agree with that.
Spells, I've found, seem to be D&D's answer to "How do I balance this class?", like they are for the ranger and paladin.

Adding a worse Flurry of Blows doesn't really do much, does it?
The Inkyo is only good in Rokugan, if Void exists. Otherwise, he's a crappier monk. Void makes him good, but without it, he makes an expert look overpowered.

If you think about it, the monk is already all about Crouching Tiger: he has Leap of the Clouds, can fall any distance, and moves at insane speeds. That's pretty good.

Spells...spells I really can't think of as a good thing for the monk.

My problem with Diamond Soul, Empty Body, Wholeness of Body and Tongue of Sun and Moon is that I have no clue where they come from, and why they're supposed to fit the monk.
 

LokiDR:

Here's what I would suggest, with some tactics noted. This is using the 30pt. buy you wanted, with the point from levelling up going into Strength.

Also, note that at 8th level this character would go from doing 1d8 + 1 damage to 1d10 + 2; you've caught him at a breakpoint. His unarmed attack bonus would similarly go up by 2; one from levelling and one from the STR increase.

The statistics for the potions are not included in the stat block, as they haven't been consumed yet. I used standard NPC wealth for a 7th level character (7,200gp) for his equipment.

----------------------------

Test Case the Monk

Medium-Size Male Human Monk 7
Hit Dice: 7d8 + 14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 20 (+3 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 Mnk, +2 Armor, +1 Natural Armor)
Attacks: +7/+2 monk; or +8 Shuriken.
Damage: 1d8 + 1 fist; or 1 Shuriken.
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, Improved Trip
Special Qualities: Evasion, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Leap of the Clouds
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8
Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Skills: Balance +13, Hide +10, Jump +12, Listen +9, Move Silently +10, Tumble +13.

Feats: [Deflect arrows], Dodge, [Improved trip], [Improved Unarmed Strike], Mobility, Spring Attack, [Stunning fist], Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike.

Equipment: Bracers of Armor +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Potion of Endurance, Potion of Cat’s Grace, Potion of Bull’s Strength, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds.

----------------------------------

Tactics: Hit and Run. Use Trip attacks with Improved Trip where possible, bouncing away again using Spring Attack if at all possible. Use greater mobility and Balance to lead the fight someplace with broken floors, rubble, whatever, that will limit PC movement and force balance checks.

Between Wholeness of Body (14 HP) and the Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2d8 +3), the monk has access to some nice healing. Using potions to enhance ability scores should be a first priority – either by hearing the party approach or by hiding and using the potions after the start of the fight.

If he hears the party (or wins initiative) I would play a waiting game, stalking the party and hitting them – especially any weaker looking types – alone if possible. Good examples would be if the mage hangs back or if the rogue scouts ahead. Above all else: do not let yourself be flanked. Tumble and use the movement rate to avoid the possibility. Using double-moves and (if necessary) running, a character in heavy armor will never catch you.
 
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Hakkenshi said:
Alaric_Prympax's question is a good one. Tactics vary greatly if it's 5-on-1. If that is the case, I'd say:

1) No grappling; you'll get ganged up on and killed.

I kinda figured that one. That and the grappling rules are kinda annoying :D


2) Tripping is good; it takes an action to get up, and Improved Trip makes you able to still deal damage.

Downed opponents are good, unless allies are attacking ranged. Also, what stops the PC from getting up, and taking a shot? Most of the players use ranged weapons of one sort or another.


3) If possible, use shuriken with stunning or paralytic poison from a distance, obviously on the weaker-looking members (as a foil for the characters, is he evil?).

I was thinking LN. He is protecting an item, not really going after the PCs. His motivation would be something like "My family has protected this place for generations, and I will use the skills I learned at the dojo to defend it."


4) Spring Attack a LOT, combine with Improved Trip.

Once again, if he trips one, and then moves on, he doesn't really do anything. The PCs might get annoyed, but he isn't really being effective.


5) Tumble is a must (but then you knew that, of course :D).

Oh ya. Tumble is the speedy character's best friend.


6) Depending on which items you choose to keep (and IF you choose to use my version of the monk), Gloves of Rust on non-magical weapons and armour is lots of fun :D
(The only house-rule I'd add to that is that IMC we said that the Mending spell repairs rusted armour; we didn't want PCs to lose that precious scale mail at such low levels of wealth).

Gloves of rust could be really obnoxious if they used any heavy armor. The party uniform seems to be mirthral shirt.


7) Surprise, surprise, surprise; with his movement, and with Hide and Move Silently, this is almost a given, but it's worth mentioning.

I'll add more suggestions if I think of any. Good luck!

Ok, so if he can get out of sight, he can hide again. Then when he attacks out of hiding he denies dex bonus? But if he spring attacks, lets just say, won't they see him comming and get dex back?

Overall, thanks for the suggestions. I am starting to look forward to this fight.
 

Hakkenshi said:
Whoa...I *really* don't agree with that.
Spells, I've found, seem to be D&D's answer to "How do I balance this class?", like they are for the ranger and paladin.

Well, the spell idea was to try to come up with a way of showing a temporary ability boost without simple granting a +whatever/so many times a day (ala rage).

Actually, calling them "extaordinary" or "supernatural" abilites instead of spells would be better.

Adding a worse Flurry of Blows doesn't really do much, does it?[/QUOTE]

What it does is give the PC the option of using a "flurry" with a weapon.

The Inkyo is only good in Rokugan, if Void exists. Otherwise, he's a crappier monk. Void makes him good, but without it, he makes an expert look overpowered.[/QUOTE]

Well, I just used the Inkyo as an example of monk abilities as feats. Void wouldn't come into play.
 

Originally posted by Ridley's Cohort
If you don't have a good Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, then your assertion that monks are better at even unarmed combat than a Fighter or Barbarian is laughable. Yes, laughable.

It is nice to know you play a monk with a high Str, Dex, Con, Wis AND INT. Clearly I have nothing to teach you about powergaming. I can't compete with your loaded dice.

Glad I got a laugh out of you. To answer this ridiculous claim, I'll tell you that in fact I usually make monks with low Strength and Con, so you don't need to bother with useless accusations of cheating (or whatever).

A monk with high Dex and Weapon Finesse, as I've stated, has no problems hitting things unless your bad luck is of legendary proportions. In that case, I advise you not to leave your house.

And since we *do* roll our stats, not everyone plays a Half-Orc barbarian with 20 Str and 16 Con but 6 in Int and Cha. That's my major beef with point buy; it makes for ridiculously uneven characters for players who insist on catering only to their main stats.

Your barbarian and fighter still can't deal anything but subdual. There are spells that protect against that entirely, and I think one of them is something like 2nd level. And whatever their level, they will still deal the same base damage unarmed. This is hardly impressive. One-on-one they would still win, but this isn't PvP, if you hadn't noticed. Grappling is incredibly useful in a number situations, and without magic items or buffs, the monk is the hands-down damage-dealer there.
 

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