Hakkenshi said:
Glad I got a laugh out of you. To answer this ridiculous claim, I'll tell you that in fact I usually make monks with low Strength and Con, so you don't need to bother with useless accusations of cheating (or whatever).
A monk with high Dex and Weapon Finesse, as I've stated, has no problems hitting things unless your bad luck is of legendary proportions. In that case, I advise you not to leave your house.
Fair enough. That can work.
But low Str does not make for much of a trip attack or grapple unless you are squaring off against a wizard or commoner. I thought you were bragging about these options for monks?
And since we *do* roll our stats, not everyone plays a Half-Orc barbarian with 20 Str and 16 Con but 6 in Int and Cha. That's my major beef with point buy; it makes for ridiculously uneven characters for players who insist on catering only to their main stats.
Don't assume I was thinking of anything of the kind. Since you brought up d12 damage as some decisive edge, you have you expect you can be matched up against, say, a human with a starting 16 Str, +3 for level stat increases, +3 for an item or potion or spell. That is a +6 mod vs. your +1 or +2. Plus his BAB is +3 higher than yours, for a net +8 in the grapple or trip check. He will win the opposed check ~80% of the time.
Your d12 +2 damage is averaging 9 points. His d3 + 6 averages 8 points. Is that an edge you want to brag about?
I haven't even considered half-orcs or raging yet.
That is an unremarkable human fighter I could build with 25 pts., without notable minmaxing and NPC wealth -- a run of the mill cohort for an Evil Wizard.
Your barbarian and fighter still can't deal anything but subdual. There are spells that protect against that entirely, and I think one of them is something like 2nd level. And whatever their level, they will still deal the same base damage unarmed. This is hardly impressive. One-on-one they would still win, but this isn't PvP, if you hadn't noticed. Grappling is incredibly useful in a number situations, and without magic items or buffs, the monk is the hands-down damage-dealer there. [/B]
I am not necessarily thinking player vs. player. I am debunking the myth that the monk is some kind of unique example of unarmed excellence. Monks don't truly "own" that niche. Other classes are competitive if they spend a feat or two.
You will run into a lot of fighterish humanoid henchmen over your career, and subdual will do the job. Humanoids are actually vastly more likely in circumstances you are lacking for weapons. Weird creatures usually just chop you up and eat you, not capture you and tie you up. Nor are they common at social events where swords are impolite.
If he isn't mowed down in the first few rounds, it looks like he could do some real damage. I think that this situation does give him a bit too much leverage of hide and move silently, but there is no perfect test. I do notice that your tatics might work better if this was a rogue 
