What's Up With The Monk?

[LokiDR]

I am not necessarily thinking player vs. player. I am debunking the myth that the monk is some kind of unique example of unarmed excellence. Monks don't truly "own" that niche. Other classes are competitive if they spend a feat or two.

You will run into a lot of fighterish humanoid henchmen over your career, and subdual will do the job. Humanoids are actually vastly more likely in circumstances you are lacking for weapons. Weird creatures usually just chop you up and eat you, not capture you and tie you up.

This line of conversation has also stayed on the human vs. human realm. What about a troll, trained a fighter to graple? they get claw damage, and it is all subdual to them. Likewise, a human fighter grappling could use enchanted daggers. 1d4+some numbe of d6s+str > 1d12+lower str.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Weird creatures usually just chop you up and eat you, not capture you and tie you up.

I find it interesting that you should mention this, since it's exactly one of my reasons for taking Escape Artist. There are a LOT of things that can try to swallow you, or constrict you, both of which are generally perceived as bad by the target.

I don't see a problem with Weapon Finesse allowing a character to Trip and grapple using Dex. It is, after all, a matter of Dexterity (Aikido, anyone?).

And again, you're spending a feat or two with your fighter or barbarian to go outside his area of expertise to TRY and catch up with the monk. You won't be grappling anything that's immune to subdual, that's for sure.

Don't assume I was thinking of anything of the kind. Since you brought up d12 damage as some decisive edge, you have you expect you can be matched up against, say, a human with a starting 16 Str, +3 for level stat increases, +3 for an item or potion or spell. That is a +6 mod vs. your +1 or +2. Plus his BAB is +3 higher than yours, for a net +8 in the grapple or trip check.

I really wish you'd stop making these unfair comparisons where one characters gets a buff spell, potion or item the other one doesn't. It doesn't make sense. You have to compare on even grounds. Would I compare a 32-point buy monk to your 25-point buy fighter? No. So don't do it with magic either.

Doing subdual damage constantly won't be of much help in the long run. Make any fighter you like that uses only unarmed damage, I'll make a monk of the same level. Which will be more useful to a party? Guess, but I'll tell you right now that the fighter is so much dead weight.

And while this "run-of-the-mill" cohort of the evil wizard is attacking the party, I'd go for the evil wizard, dammit!

 

[LokiDR]

I think that 7th level monk is dead meat against those 5 PCs of 5thish level. Spring Attack will hardly help unless he can surprise them over and over again; 2 or 3 of them will ready actions and hammer him to oblivion.

What you need is Spring Attack and Hold the Line (Combat Reflexes as prereq). That will cause havoc with readied charges. But he couldn't get that until 9th level. CR will also help a bit if they try to gang up on him.

Where is "Hold the Line" again? And what do you mean CR will help if they gang up? If the PCs gang up on the monk?

As for the monk winning, I don't think any one here believes he will win. The question is if the fight is challenging. I agree that the PCs will hammer him into oblivion. But if he manages to take a few down, I will be impressed.

 

[Hakkenshi]

This line of conversation has also stayed on the human vs. human realm. What about a troll, trained a fighter to graple? they get claw damage, and it is all subdual to them. Likewise, a human fighter grappling could use enchanted daggers. 1d4+some numbe of d6s+str > 1d12+lower str.

Hey, this is true, but again, the monk will be pretty high level by the time that Troll has one level of fighter (if they're on even footing). And if you give the human fighter a magical dagger in a comparison, give the monk magical brass knuckles or enchanted gloves.

Otherwise the comparison is pointless, since it's one-sided.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

And since we *do* roll our stats, not everyone plays a Half-Orc barbarian with 20 Str and 16 Con but 6 in Int and Cha. That's my major beef with point buy; it makes for ridiculously uneven characters for players who insist on catering only to their main stats.

To respond to this (as it has been said twice now), neither I nor anyone I've ever played with has made any character as twinked as that fighter I just made (with a 6 INT and 6 CHA). In fact, every character I've played in the last 2 years has been significantly UNDER-maximized.

In defense of point-buy, I think it gives players more control over the type of character they make. I've yet to see it actually abused. In fact, I would argue that point-buy actually prevents players from playing characters with idiot-intelligence and or lowlife-personalities (i.e., I know of no one who likes to play these kind of characters, and that doesn't change regardless of using point-buy).

I was simply making such a character to illustrate the rules advantage of not having to rely on so many attributes, as does the monk. Further, anyone could do the same thing to a monk, giving him only a 6 for CHA. It's not something exclusive to fighters by any means.

 

[LokiDR]

Hey, this is true, but again, the monk will be pretty high level by the time that Troll has one level of fighter (if they're on even footing). And if you give the human fighter a magical dagger in a comparison, give the monk magical brass knuckles or enchanted gloves.

Otherwise the comparison is pointless, since it's one-sided.

A troll is CR5. Could the monk that was just post a while ago face a troll with two levels of fighter?

As for magic items, I have always been talking about the core books and splat books. You always could add new items, but you can also add new abilties to the class. What published materials are there to really help the monk? I say monks, as the published material in D&D stand, suck for this reason. Maybe brass knuckles should be added for monks, but since they aren't don't say it isn't fair.

 

[Gizzard]

As a matter of fact, the monk who uses Escape Artist is avoiding being a liability by not getting swallowed by every hungry creature that comes by. He also has better chances of freeing himself, then his comrades if he escapes bonds should the party get captured.

That niche is pretty specialized; again like many of the Monks "useful" abilities. I personally didnt take Escape Artist; though considering the number of times I've been engulfed by and Ooze or an angry Construct while performing my semi-scouting role, maybe I should have. Still, Escape Artist is opposed by the opponent Grapple check and most creatures that Grapple you have a big STR bonus. You'll be spending several of your Ranks just to get an even break against the sort of creatures that will grab you.

What about a troll, trained a fighter to graple? they get claw damage, and it is all subdual to them.

Ugh, yes. You dont have to train them, they have the Improved Grab right? They just grab your poor little Monk and start squeezing until he pops.

A Troll is really a nightmare for a low level Monk; a big burly creature with Regen 5.

In some senses, the Troll is just the extreme of what Ridley has been saying about the Monk not being the uncontested "best" grappler -- any big creature with high STR and high HP may not be as *optimized* for grappling as a Monk, but he is roughly as effective.

I dont think there's really an arguement here; are people saying its a good idea to run up and grapple a Barbarian? Grappling is for wussies like Sorcerers who cant fight back. ;-)

 

[Gizzard]

I think that 7th level monk is dead meat against those 5 PCs of 5thish level.

I wonder if it would be more balanced to have the PCs fight some sort of Monk order; 5 Monks of 5th level or so?

I still suspect they'd get rolled fast because 1) the Monks wouldnt have the flexibility the party has, 2) Monks suck. ;-)

 

[LokiDR]

...

I dont think there's really an arguement here; are people saying its a good idea to run up and grapple a Barbarian? Grappling is for wussies like Sorcerers who cant fight back. ;-)

Hakkenshi seems to believe that monks are the king of grapplers, which is where my comments come from. As far a going after the "wussies", I would expect them to fly up as soo as they got the chance.

 

[Christian]

Here's what I would suggest, with some tactics noted. This is using the 30pt. buy you wanted, with the point from levelling up going into Strength.

Also, note that at 8th level this character would go from doing 1d8 + 1 damage to 1d10 + 2; you've caught him at a breakpoint. His unarmed attack bonus would similarly go up by 2; one from levelling and one from the STR increase.

The statistics for the potions are not included in the stat block, as they haven't been consumed yet. I used standard NPC wealth for a 7th level character (7,200gp) for his equipment.

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Test Case the Monk

Medium-Size Male Human Monk 7
Hit Dice: 7d8 + 14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 20 (+3 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 Mnk, +2 Armor, +1 Natural Armor)
Attacks: +7/+2 monk; or +8 Shuriken.
Damage: 1d8 + 1 fist; or 1 Shuriken.
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, Improved Trip
Special Qualities: Evasion, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Leap of the Clouds
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8
Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Skills: Balance +13, Hide +10, Jump +12, Listen +9, Move Silently +10, Tumble +13.

Feats: [Deflect arrows], Dodge, [Improved trip], [Improved Unarmed Strike], Mobility, Spring Attack, [Stunning fist], Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike.

Equipment: Bracers of Armor +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Potion of Endurance, Potion of Cat’s Grace, Potion of Bull’s Strength, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds.

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Tactics: Hit and Run. Use Trip attacks with Improved Trip where possible, bouncing away again using Spring Attack if at all possible. Use greater mobility and Balance to lead the fight someplace with broken floors, rubble, whatever, that will limit PC movement and force balance checks.

Between Wholeness of Body (14 HP) and the Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2d8 +3), the monk has access to some nice healing. Using potions to enhance ability scores should be a first priority – either by hearing the party approach or by hiding and using the potions after the start of the fight.

If he hears the party (or wins initiative) I would play a waiting game, stalking the party and hitting them – especially any weaker looking types – alone if possible. Good examples would be if the mage hangs back or if the rogue scouts ahead. Above all else: do not let yourself be flanked. Tumble and use the movement rate to avoid the possibility. Using double-moves and (if necessary) running, a character in heavy armor will never catch you.

Some small tweaks as alternatives, and expanding on some points (and answering some later objections):

Attributes: I'd consider switching 1-2 points of Dex, Con, or Wis into Strength. Giving up 1 point of AC or 7 hit points for +1 to hit and damage on each unarmed attack and a better chance to successfully Trip opponents is a positive trade, IMO.

Items:
The friendly neighboorhood druid who made that Amulet of Natural Armor for him might have been better persuaded to make a couple of potions of Greater Magic Fang (at caster level 6, for a +2 enhancement) instead. (Not listed on the standard potion chart, but obviously it's a core item.) As with the stat-boosting potions, this should be downed at the first sign of trouble-duration is hours, not rounds or minutes.

Tactics:
This guy would obviously be familiar with the layout of the catacombs-use it! His biggest weakness will always be ranged attacks; he should choose his battlefield so that, after his spring attack, he's around a corner or somesuch, if possible.

If he can't do that, he has one primary target: the wizard. Everyone else has to make attack rolls and risk his Deflect Arrows against their ranged attacks. The wizard is much more dangerous (despite the monk's good saves). Also, the wizard will have a poor Fortitude save-take advantage of that by using Stunning Fist before he springs away.

Along the lines of the 'broken floors' suggestion, obstacles will be the monk's friends. Pits and/or barricades that he can leap, ladders & staircases, narrow spaces-all of these slow pursuit and spread out the enemies, both of which will enhance his ability to use hit & run tactics.

Finally, if he's ever stuck (hopefully briefly) in one spot & is using full attacks, here's a good rule of thumb about when to use Flurry of Blows: use Flurry of Blows. The math has been posted in the past on this forum, but the upshot is that flurrying is nearly always at least as good, and often better, than making the normal attacks. It's usually best in the heat of combat not to try to think too much about it, but just to focus on taking down the opposition & fighting your way out of the corner you're in.