What's Up With The Monk?

[Shard O'Glase]

hrd two mak a pnt whn pepple cont understan yu noo nede to bee a jeyk

that was almost funny.

Gee and if my posts were anywhewre near that bad you might have a point. Looking back at them though if people can't undersatand them, I think we are looking at a reading comprehension problem and not a typing/spelling/grammar problem. And I'm only a jerk when poeple deserve it.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

First, I would like to say that you may be taking this a little to personally Shard. I am not calling you stupid, I am trying to point out inconsistancies. I want monks to be cool, I just don't see it working out. I personally have to see it work out by only using items as they appear. If you apply rules meant for expanding the material (combining items), you are making the campaign more friendly to monks. That is fine. How do they fair without any expanding of what is published? Maybe the fault is in the published material, but that is what we are working in.



I consider the items in the DMG to be the "commonly availible" items. Others might be more rare (cost more). The comment was just a nitpick. All the rest of my comments assume you have them.

Also, I found the rules for combining items in Tome and Blood. What page is it in the DMG? Did I just glance by it?



A technical nitpick. Because the monk class is explained in the online SRD, I assumed you would use this source. It just wasn't helping your case.



Your tatics assumed I already knew how to play a killer monk. I don't know monk that well. You don't make be believe that monk is cooler by saying "its simple." I didn't need tatcial maps, but a few round by round examples would have been nice. I think wolff96 did a good explanation.



My bad. I spaced on the partial charge. (hey, we all have our days) But even a partial charge puts your monk right next to the party as a whole. Do you expect the wizard to be alone? And contrary to a later post, I don't see you dragging off the wizard quitly, but who knows?



If I am going to debate an issue, I have to be able to understand the oppsition. I don't care about text book grammar or spelling. All I ask to be able to understand your thoughts with a minimum of effort. Casual means ignore it if it too much work. Again, it was just not helping you out (you seem to have changed at least a bit since then, which might say something)

Overall, you obviously put lots of effort into the monk, and he does seem cool. I just can't reason putting this bit-too-minmaxed character against my party. I hope you understand. It would not be a fair test of monks in general.

I don't remember which page the combo items is in the dmg, probably one of the behind the curtain sections. I don't have the dmg here. Personally though I don't consider it in any way an expansion on the rules. I would actually look at attempts to keep the items to those specifically listed as a narrowing of the rules.

I'm sure it is in the SRD the monks speed that is, but I think saying 80 or 100 movment was more than clear enough and in no way weakened my case. If you think it does I think you are trying too hard to find flaws in any pro-monk argument.

Partial charge with a move of 100 and spring attack can put you a very long way from the party. Lets say he sneaks up to within 20' of the party. presumedly he picks a location where he can hit and run a good distance in a straight line, like an intersection. This line should probably be at some kind of angle so after the hit the run puts him out of a direct line of fire. And also considering it is indoors would very likely either put him out of visable range(torches, darkvision etc) or out of line of sight like a pillar or corner. He then can rehide at basically no penalty. This wont work much, I figure two runs until the party is savy. Time one compleate surprise, time 2 they eventually figure he left and just gave them a parting shot. time 3 the party tries to make it look like their guard is dropped to lure him in with their readied actions. Time 3 is where he leads them into a trap of somekind. If you want to use all his skill points give him points in craft trapmaking. He can also make different style attempts in try 3. For example throw a bunch of smokesticks, and thunderstones at the party. (maybe that's a set trap) If anyone foolishly stumbles out on their own, especially a weak mage type he moves in for the kill.

And no I don't think it is likely he can drag the mage off quietly. But stunning blow's only pre-req seems to be unarmed damage caused. A surprise grapple could cause damage, and a stun. I'd allow players to try and grapple for damage, while doing something like grabbing the opponents mouth to keep them quiet. I'd put big penalties on the sneak checks, but I think it could be done. It seems to be a very apprpriate action considering what we see in movies and read in books. And if stunned druing the grapple attempt how much noise will the mage make. Now obviosuly the person targeted couldn't be in the sight if other members, but the rear guard(cleric?) could be targetd with less chance of success. If you could get the party to follow the monk with his high movement, and knowledge of the terain he likely could loop around the party and come in on whoever is trailing behind and this might actually be the wiz/sor types who want to hang in the back.


I don't feel the monk is a bit too min-maxed. He is a combat oriented monk sure, but if you throw one of these non combat monks at the party with a 12 str you don't prove that monks suck at fighting. All you prove is a melle combabtant with a 12 str sucks at fighting. Stats are absurdly important for any class. If you ant a monk to hang in a mellee fight he has to have a good str, otherwise he is just dead weight. If you are looking for other things in a monk go ahead and put a 12 in str. Furthermore I'd say this monk was very un-min/maxed in some areas, like stats. One bad stat the rest were 12,14,14,14,15 at the start. All very good stats though not the virtually needed 18's of 2nd edition fame. Which is why for the monk I don't think multistat dependency is such a problem, a 14 is a good stat, 12s are decent. If you want to focus in something though like unarmed combat you should boost the appropriate stat.

And by the way I don't necessarily think the monk shouldn't be changed. I just don't think he sucks. I hate the design concept of a very rigid special ability progression, incredibly booring. After playing one monk it almost feels like you've seen them all. Sure feats and skills can be different, but gods there are so many things the same it is booring as heck.

 

[Gizzard]

The two very successful Monk PCs in my game, who definitely overshadowed similar-level fighters, had very high stats - one had both WIS & DEX 18 and with [Expertise] & Mage Armor could get his AC ridiculously high, I think 32 was the most... this being as a FTR1/MNK6 or similar.

Why did they overshadow similar-level Fighters? I'm curious since I see the opposite in my games.

On the topic of Expertise: Expertise is difficult for a Monk to take since it requires INT 13 and the poor Monks stats are already stretched very thin. Feat slots are another area that the Monk is stretched thin in; especially if you hope to get the Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack chain going.

And this is what you get with it (using the posted Monk7 from earlier in the thread) , you could go from +7/+4 (or +5/+5/+2) with AC20 to +2/-1 (or +0/+0/-3) with AC25. (Is this the way it works, can I go negative on my to-hits?!) It's certainly a tradeoff; the Monk may have a high AC but he has given up any offensive power he may have had to do it.

Of course, if I just go Total Defense I go to AC26 (with the Tumble synergy bonus. Every Monk takes Tumble, so this is almost a freebie.) Sure, I dont get to attack, but I'm not sure that +2/-1 at level 7 is really attacking either. ;-)

Do you think Expertise helped your Monks a lot?

 

[Forrester]

Partial charge with a move of 100 and spring attack can put you a very long way from the party.

Did partial charge and Spring Attack become a combo when I wasn't looking?

 

[S'mon]

Why did they overshadow similar-level Fighters? I'm curious since I see the opposite in my games.

Do you think Expertise helped your Monks a lot?

Overshadowing fighters - well, I run a lower magic game, although I generally use the standard reward tables for treasure gained, I won't start off new PCs with the standard amount of magic gear, they only get an amount equal to a standard reward for an encounter of their level, eg 2100gp for a 6th level character. Monks are actually much _less_ reliant on gear than fighters are, so that favours monks. In general self-reliant classes like monks and sorcerers seem to be favoured in my game. Because the fighters and barbarians die, and the monks don't (and resurrection isn't available), the magic items gained through play end up in the hands of the monks, making them more powerful.
Also, both Monk PCs started out at 4th level as multiclassed PCs, and monks seem to gain a _lot_ from having a Rogue or Fighter level - sneak-attacking Monk is _deadly_ combined with Unarmed Attacks & Flurry of Blows!

Expertise - only 1 of the Monks had the Int for this, when used it made her almost unkillable, they defeated a 7-head hydra at 7th level and it needed '20' to hit her, didn't touch her once. After that I had to limit it and kept a close eye on her use of it, unlike Dodge which I generally allow to be 'always in play' vs the first attack suffered, making it a desirable feat.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Did partial charge and Spring Attack become a combo when I wasn't looking?

I guess so. It's perfectly valid. You can use Spring Attack like the Ride-by Attack feat--I had emailed the Sage about that very same thing.

Chain Shirt and a good DEX means that our 5th level Barbarian is AC17. The Monk and the TWF Fighter are AC18, I think the Cleric might be even slightly higher since he has a Shield. The Barbarian is very comparable to everyone else at 5th, though I can see that AC is going to be a problem for him in the future. But for now, I'd rather have 57HP with 17AC (or 67 HP with 15AC raging) than 37HP with 18AC like the Monk.

Well, I'd rather have the higher AC, myself. Let the barbarian take the hits instead, that's what he's for.

Dodge actually brings the monk's AC to 19 when it counts. And expertise is much better than fighting defensively, unless you have enough ranks to get the superior bonus in OA.

A tangent to that thought: a lot of people have mentioned specific Spells (Magic Fang) or Items (Boots of Striding) that they feel really help the Monk. For a lot of different reasons, these things may not be available in a given campaign; especially a low-magic campaign.

Absolutely. Those are just some of the general favourites for a monk. If I am making up a monk from scratch with choice of equipment, I would tend to get the Boots of S&S, since they're a great benefit. Sometimes, though, I'll take Boots of Elvenkind instead, since they're also quite good. Monk's belt is also a pretty clear choice, as are the Ki Straps in S&F. But you're right, it's only ideal, it doesn't come up all the time.

I don't feel the monk is a bit too min-maxed. He is a combat oriented monk sure, but if you throw one of these non combat monks at the party with a 12 str you don't prove that monks suck at fighting. All you prove is a melle combabtant with a 12 str sucks at fighting. Stats are absurdly important for any class. If you ant a monk to hang in a mellee fight he has to have a good str, otherwise he is just dead weight. If you are looking for other things in a monk go ahead and put a 12 in str. Furthermore I'd say this monk was very un-min/maxed in some areas, like stats. One bad stat the rest were 12,14,14,14,15 at the start. All very good stats though not the virtually needed 18's of 2nd edition fame. Which is why for the monk I don't think multistat dependency is such a problem, a 14 is a good stat, 12s are decent. If you want to focus in something though like unarmed combat you should boost the appropriate stat.

I find this very interesting, although for me the "appropriate" stat is Dex. It would indeed be funny to throw a barb or a fighter with a Str of 12 at the party

You know, logically a fighter is not much freer with his stats than a monk. He needs high Con, high Str, preferably high Dex and Int for the best feats. If he doesn't want to be Dominate-bait, he had better have a Wisdom bonus to Will saves.

The same goes for the barb. High Str and Con to be sure, high Dex so that AC won't be TOTALLY ridiculous when he rages. Int really isn't an issue as much as for the fighter, since I'm not sure he could use those feats while raging, but the Will saves had better be good, for the sake of the party.

2) You are on watch. The Giant charges into your camp and only you stand between him and the squishy, sleeping but valuable Wizard.

I don't want to read too much that isn't there, but I think one of the problems is always perceiving some classes as "more valuable". IMC we usually see every member as having the same value (in-game), since, in the game, they're all living beings.

On top of that, in this scenario there are many options open to the monk:
1) he could have heard the Giant coming and woken his friends (Listen as a class skill and Wisdom bonus; I think he would have heard the Giant);
2) he could have heard the Giant coming and gone to distract after kicking the fighter or mage awake;
3) assuming he was dozing off and did not hear the Giant coming, he could divert its attention from the camp (I would say a Giant would go for the annoyance first and foremost), or even take one hit for the wizard ("Owww! You owe me big time, mage!") since the wizard will most likely be grateful for a lifesaver (sleeping wizard = dead meat).

 

[Hakkenshi]

Also, both Monk PCs started out at 4th level as multiclassed PCs, and monks seem to gain a _lot_ from having a Rogue or Fighter level - sneak-attacking Monk is _deadly_ combined with Unarmed Attacks & Flurry of Blows!

Just out of curiosity (not trashing the players or the characters), how did they justify the multiclassing in-game?

Comboing classes is often tricky storywise.

 

[Forrester]

I guess so. It's perfectly valid. You can use Spring Attack like the Ride-by Attack feat--I had emailed the Sage about that very same thing.

Wow, that's really dumb. Is that in a FAQ somewhere, or just in a random Sage email?

Does Spring Attack magically invalidate the "entire move must be in a straight line" clause of Charge? Why not, right? I mean, it's Spring Attack!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Wow, that's really dumb. Is that in a FAQ somewhere, or just in a random Sage email?

Does Spring Attack magically invalidate the "entire move must be in a straight line" clause of Charge? Why not, right? I mean, it's Spring Attack!

I can't see why it's dumb. Spring attack is just move/attack/move. You get both movement and an attack in a partial charge. So it works for me. And no it doesn't change the entire move must be in a straight line clause.(which means if you want to get out of sight with the partial charge/spring attack you have to be selective in how/where you use this) Some didn't like it because charge mentions you end your movement at the attack. That was clarified, when people asked that they were just letting people know that the standard rules of move+attack were still there charge didn't give you spring attack for free. But if you did purchase spring attack then yes you could charge and partial charge with it.

Personally I think not allowing it would be dumb. Someone just spent 3 feats on the ability to move/attack/move. Not allowing them to use it during a partial charge, makes an already mediocre feat kinda weak.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I find this very interesting, although for me the "appropriate" stat is Dex. It would indeed be funny to throw a barb or a fighter with a Str of 12 at the party

You know, logically a fighter is not much freer with his stats than a monk. He needs high Con, high Str, preferably high Dex and Int for the best feats. If he doesn't want to be Dominate-bait, he had better have a Wisdom bonus to Will saves.

The same goes for the barb. High Str and Con to be sure, high Dex so that AC won't be TOTALLY ridiculous when he rages. Int really isn't an issue as much as for the fighter, since I'm not sure he could use those feats while raging, but the Will saves had better be good, for the sake of the party.



.

I think anytime a class gives extra benefits to a stat beyond the norm(con=hp) people instinctively say that's a prime stat I need an 18 to make a decent character. With the monk he is a combatant so he has the standard norm primes, +wisdom. So everyone says I need a whole bunch of 18's to be a good monk. And quite frankly that's crap. A 14 gives you a good boost, add stat increase items you may gain over levels and you get a +5 bonus. 2+5's =+10 so with a starting 14/14 in dex/wis you can end up with a+10 to ac just from stats. I think that's fairly cool. Also as I mentioned before in the standard point buy min/max wise you don't want to purchase much past 14 anyways because the cost becomes prohibitive. If you want an 18 it costs 16 points, in a 25 point but how much does that leave the fighter now that he's all bad with an 18 str. He can't even get the rest of his stats to 10. Oh I can see the list of feats he has with those stats, power attack, and even more power attack. On 25 point buy a monk could have these stats: 14,14,10,12,14,9.(S,D,C,I,W,CH) combat monster nope, but still good stats for a generalist which is what the monk is as written.