What's wrong with grappling?

[Shadowdweller]

I don't think grappling is in and of itself a bad mechanic, nor is it extremely complicated. It IS, however, poorly explained in 3.5 and was almost a nightmare in 3.0 (where monster listings required recalculation to determine number of possible grapple checks per round). The game designers were very inconsistent for a long time with explanations, even going so far as to publish incorrect information in the supposedly rule-clarifying Gamestoppers articles on the Wizards' web site. Even as it is, there remain a number of monsters with Improved Grab, that probably should never grapple (if they wish to make the most of their offenses).

The mechanics aren't really so bad IMO, but have been handled horribly.

 

[Shin Okada]

I am second to The Souljourner. The grappling bonuses for lager creatures are too much. Every so often, typical PCs of certain level are too helpless against animals and other larger creatures with improved grapple ability.

And I think those rules are not reflecting either reality or fictional reality. Under the current ruling, it is so easy for a 64 fts. gigantic creature to grab and hold a diminutive fry. It is unlikely to happen even in a heroic fiction story.

 

[Will]

Man. I'm having flashbacks.

I recently ran some 14-15th level characters agains a few nightwalkers. The nightwalkers had been clever and filled their lair with water, so anyone teleporting in would drown (or, at least, thrash about to fix the problem).

Well, party thought enough to check. Fine... that's the reward to prepare.

One PC is a druid.

Oh. My. GOD.

Squids are nasty grapplers. Grappled two nightwalkers, maximized sun burst (or sunray? I forget).

Party mulched the opposition. Yoy.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

There are two things to point out about the viability of grappling characters:

1. The theoretically maximized fighter grappler ought to have Enlarge Person cast on him. Now he's at +27. If he's a fighter grappler, odds are decent he's got one or two barbarian levels which would put him at +29. That's actually not too far from the cloud giant's grapple score. (It's actually better than the young adult green dragon's +27).

2. Not all high CR foes are as tough to grapple as giants. An 11th level fighter, for instance, is much easier. An 11th level wizard is dramatically easier. A Hezrou demon (also CR 11) is only +19 (and he's supposed to be something of a grappler himself). A CR 11 Hamatula is +22 to grapple. (Although grappling one would hurt). A Stone Golem is +23.

Grapplers will often be at a disadvantage at high levels but won't always be at a disadvantage by any stretch of the imagination.

3. Most grapplers will have options other than grappling.

-Monk grapplers have Flurries and a variety of non-grapple bonus feats like Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes

-The theoretical fighter/barbarian grappler has (let's make him a half-orc Ftr 8/Bbn 3) 9 feats to play with
1. Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Improved Grapple
3. Weapon Focus: Grapple
4. Weapon Specialization: Grapple
5. Greater Weapon Focus: Grapple

That leaves him with 4 feats for other things. (If he's using builder books, one of them ought to be clever wrestling). So he could also have:
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes

Or

Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain, Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain

Or:

Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line

and still have plenty of tricks up his sleeve when he's not grappling.

 

[Dax Doomslayer]

2 problems -

1.) As you go up in level, monsters go up in size and strength - vastly quicker than PCs. Cloud Giant - CR 11, Grapple +32. 11th level grapple specialist fighter with 20 strength and +4 strength item - grapple +22. And that assumes you start with 18 strength and get improved grapple. And that's the *best* you can do - losing by 10. Far too often I've seen characters grappled and they simply have NO chance to get out.

2.) The rules for doing damage are really annoyingly laid out, and difficult to understand, especially when it comes to monsters with natural attacks. They really need to clear it up and make it make some kind of sense. Did you realize that you don't get your allotment of natural attacks in a grapple, but instead get iterative attacks based on your BAB? Did you notice that even natural attacks get -4 to hit? Did you notice that you can't succeed at an offensive grapple check against anything two or more sizes larger than you?

There's just lots of side rules and caveats and changes to the way Things Are Done™, which makes it difficult to keep up with.

-The Souljourner

I also find that the grapple rules are a pain and the way they are laid out even worse. As for The Souljourner's comment as to natural attacks vs. BAB iterative attacks, I didn't notice that nor did I realize that natural attacks get a -4!! I've got to go back and re-read that. I understand this would be a lot of work, but I was wondering if someone could give a "dissertation" on the application of the whole grapple rules thing in a "blow by blow" order (also listing the caveats) to help out us newbies. I know it would work wonders for me! Is anyone up for the challenge? Just wondering. Thanks.

 

[Camarath]

This entry under Improved Grab sounds like creatures with that ability can use the Damage Your Opponent grapple option with the attack that established the hold to me.

From SRD under Improved Grab

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

 

[physics_ninja]

2 problems -

1.) As you go up in level, monsters go up in size and strength - vastly quicker than PCs. Cloud Giant - CR 11, Grapple +32. 11th level grapple specialist fighter with 20 strength and +4 strength item - grapple +22. And that assumes you start with 18 strength and get improved grapple. And that's the *best* you can do - losing by 10. Far too often I've seen characters grappled and they simply have NO chance to get out.
-The Souljourner

But while the giant is busy grappling the fighter the giant is denied his Dex bonus.

Enter the rogue ...

At 11th level that's +6d6 sneak attack damage for *each* attack.

 

[Pax]

Regarding Grappling and Freedom fo Movment -- one of the first post-3.5 houserules the Exodus came up with, was to make FoM give you a decent bonus to resisting grapple checks (i.e., to your side of things when making an opposed grapple check as the defender), rather than grant outright immunity. Especially since, in many of our opinions, that immunity was somewhat suspect anyway; FoM doesn't make a locked door unable to prevent your walking through, does it? So why should it prevent someone from jumping atop you and trying to squeeze the life out of you, hmm?

Anyway, that seemed to fix things right there; FoM is no longer a case of "hah, noone can grapple me" ... now it's a case of "hah, I'm really HARD to grapple".

And, for grappling ... to heck with the Reaping Mauler. Take a gander at the Justiciar ... and pull that trick with the Antimagic Shackles from the BoED. ^_^ grab ... grapple ... pin ... *CLICK!* ... *poof*, one helpless, denied-magical-aid foe, made to order. Coup-de-grace to your heart's content.

(For the record, the Antimagic Shackles have a burst DC of 40, and enclose themselves and whoever is in them in an Antimagic Field.)