What's wrong with metamagic?

[MerakSpielman]

What about the optional rule to allow classes that normally have to prepare their spells to spontaniously apply metamagic to their spells, but losing a random spell from the increased spell level?

Example: Wizard is high enough level to cast 4th level spells. He has a Magic Missile prepared. His prepared 4th level spells are Stoneskin and Dimensional Ancher, which are currently useless. If he considers it very important to deal damage this round (a critter is almost dead, for instance) he can spontaniously Maximize his Magic Missile spell, which would normally take up a 4th level spell slot. He randomly loses either his Dimensional Ancher or Stoneskin spell, as well as his Magic Missle.

Allowing a certain amount of spontanaity from preparatory casters can be a good thing, and might make metamagic feats more attractive to them.

 

[Joker]

Weird. I've never played a spontaneous caster, but I always thought that because a metamagicked spell took a round to cast it would be a big pain the ass. Maybe it's not as bad as I think.

That said. We have three casters in our 4 man party that prepare spells. Two of them (Cleric/Hierophant and a Wizard/Archmage) make fairly extensive use of metamagics. The wizard does it more in the form of scrolls and wands whereas I use (or plan to use once I find a new god ) my spell slots for them. The main reason for this is because I need to use persistant spell to have divine power/favor, prayer and recitation on all the time so I (instead of taking several rounds to buff) can act as a buffer between enemy meleeists and the wizards who can pound the enemy if left relatively uninterrupted.

I also have Heighten Spell. I have found (back when I had spells) that the higher DC for certain spells such as Hold Person or Sound Burst are quite useful.
I do want Quicken Spell so I can fling off a spell and then go into melee.

So in my experience metamagic feats (the ones we use) are quite powerful despite the fact that they are costly and are definately not, as others have stated, useless. IM(not so humble)O.

 

[Nessin]

What about the optional rule to allow classes that normally have to prepare their spells to spontaniously apply metamagic to their spells, but losing a random spell from the increased spell level?

Example: Wizard is high enough level to cast 4th level spells. He has a Magic Missile prepared. His prepared 4th level spells are Stoneskin and Dimensional Ancher, which are currently useless. If he considers it very important to deal damage this round (a critter is almost dead, for instance) he can spontaniously Maximize his Magic Missile spell, which would normally take up a 4th level spell slot. He randomly loses either his Dimensional Ancher or Stoneskin spell, as well as his Magic Missle.

Allowing a certain amount of spontanaity from preparatory casters can be a good thing, and might make metamagic feats more attractive to them.

Take that entire example and subtract the word "randomly" and you have a Sorcerer. That's why it's not a optional rule, it's already a rule in-game.

 

[shilsen]

Have the metamagic feats been used equally, or did you notice a certain "overuse" of the one's that have a higher spell level modifier?

It seems to me, that you gain more (altho the number of spells you can use them on is lower) with those feats, that's why I came to the solution linked above, where a lower spell level modifier grants a double advantage.

Bye
Thanee

Actually, it's the other ones (Still Spell, Silent Spell) which have seen more use. That's mainly because under the Spontaneous Metamagic (3/day daily use) rules, though a metamagicked spell doesn't take a higher slot, the maximum level of spell a caster can apply a metamagic feat to is equal to the max spell level he can cast minus the spell level adjustment of the feat. So a 6th lvl wizard can apply Still Spell to spells up to 2nd lvl but Empower Spell up to only 1st lvl.

 

[LoneWolf23]

Me, I'd use Metamagic Feats either in conjuncture with either the Action Points optional rule from Unearthed Arcana (spend 1 action point to use a Metamagic feat without modyfing the spell's level) or with Spell Points, with an additional cost to spellcasting with the Metamagic alteration.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Take that entire example and subtract the word "randomly" and you have a Sorcerer. That's why it's not a optional rule, it's already a rule in-game.

No, it's a rule for wizards, clerics, and druids. It allows spontanious metamagic, but at the cost of TWO already-prepared spells. Quite different, really.

 

[Verequus]

I'd say they do.

Empowered fireball = 15d6, level = 5
Cone of cold = 15d6, level = 5

Twinned or energy admixed fireball = 20d6, level = 7
Delayed blast fireball = 20d6, level = 7

However the metamagick version can be cast earlier, so mm-ed spells are actually a bit better than the non mm-ed variety.

Actually, I don't understand the last sentence. Don't all spells, mm-ed or not, require for their (adjusted) spell level the same slot levels? Or do you mean the casting time, which is more for spontaneous casters, if the use mm-ed spells? Also, the save DCs are lower for mm-ed spells, which should be house-ruled to be of the same level IMO.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Actually, I don't understand the last sentence.

By earlier I meant that by using metamagic a lower level caster can do the damage of a higher level one. For example a 10th level wizard can do 15d6 damage using an empowered Fireball. He'd have to wait until 15th level to do 15d6 damage with a Cone of Cold. The 10th level wizard is doing 15d6 damage earlier than he would otherwise be able to.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What's wrong with metamagic in 3.5?

Nothing.

 

[Jarrod]

We've started using an interesting (and fun) metamagic variant.

Metamagic works off a pool of "points". The size of the pool is (spellcasting stat bonus) + (sum of level adjustments of metamagic feats taken). So, a mage with an INT of 10 and both empower and maximize would have 5 points. INT of 18, still, silent: 6 (4+1+1).

Metamagic is done on the fly. You must satisfy the metacap (spell + adjustment <= max castable), which keeps the quickened Meteor Swarms away. If you are a sorcerer, metamagicing takes no extra time. If you are a wizard, it takes an extra action (ish) per metamagic applied. One takes a standard action to a full-round action, similarly to current sorcs. Two makes it a full action + standard next round. And so on. I'm not sure how quicken is going to work in this system... nobody has it yet.

We've seen a lot of use of empower, but more interestingly extend. It also makes utilities like silence and still much more useful. You get more uses than sudden, but with the metacap. You don't have to pre-memorize, so it is more powerful than now.

This system was stolen from somewhere, we didn't make it up I just wish I remember who... it came from here.