What's wrong with metamagic?

[Doug McCrae]

Cite source for the reverse.

The feat listings in Complete Arcane and the Player's Handbook. (And Energise/Enervate Spell in Libris Mortis.)

Nothing says Empower Spell is an exception. Heck, nothing says Empower Spell doesn't synergize with Maximize Spell. Cite source for that.

Player's Handbook 3.5 pages 97-98. The actual rule is on page 98.

Simplicity and consistency requires that, either all metamagic feats affect each other's effects, or no metamagic feat affect any other's effects. Use one or the other.

They may do. But we're talking about the rules of Dungeons & Dragons here, not what's simple or consistent.

 

[Chorn]

The feat listings in Complete Arcane and the Player's Handbook. (And Energise/Enervate Spell in Libris Mortis.)

Here's the text of the Maximize Spell feat. Note the highlighted section.

System Reference Document 3.5
MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

It's the general rule on stacking effects in d20 that you always apply multipliers to the base value. Back in 3.0, a double extended spell has its duration tripled rather than quadrupled because you apply the extension to the base and not the modified duration.

 

[Thanee]

Cite source.

Hmm... good question.

I was fairly sure, that there was a general rule like this, but it really doesn't seem to.

The mentioning under Maximize Spell really just seems to be an exception.

Also, I absolutely think it would be fair to have different metamagic feats "stack", because a metamagicked spell is usually already weaker than a regular spell of the modified spell level. So, I wouldn't have a problem with that, just thought it is the other way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Well, some metamagic feats will be better than others, ...

That's a given... I'm just trying to figure out, whether there is a general tendency to use the higher modifier metamagic feats over the lower modifier ones.

Mostly to see, whether my idea how to change that variant (more charges per day for lower ones, less for higher ones) is the right direction to go.


Apart from that, I definitely think, sorcerers should have 50% more charges per day (since 3x1.5 is 4.5, I would give them 5 up to +2 and 4 for +3 and higher).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's the general rule on stacking effects in d20 that you always apply multipliers to the base value.

You have a point there. The passage on multiplying (page 304 of the PHB) could be applied to stacking metamagic feats.

Maximize is something of a special case as, unlike empower, twin, split ray and energy admixture it doesn't multiply by a clear amount. Nonetheless it approximates to a 75% increase, in line with its level add compared to the other mm feats.

 

[shilsen]

That's a given... I'm just trying to figure out, whether there is a general tendency to use the higher modifier metamagic feats over the lower modifier ones.

Mostly to see, whether my idea how to change that variant (more charges per day for lower ones, less for higher ones) is the right direction to go.


Apart from that, I definitely think, sorcerers should have 50% more charges per day (since 3x1.5 is 4.5, I would give them 5 up to +2 and 4 for +3 and higher).

Bye
Thanee

What I did for sorcerers and other spontaneous casters is lower the cap by one. So a 6th lvl sorcerer or bard can empower 2nd lvl spells, while a 6th lvl wizard or cleric can empower up to 1st lvl spells.

 

[kigmatzomat]

metamagicks see pretty good use in my (3.0) game. Extended and persistent spells are fired off from both primary casters regularly. Eschew materials is another popular one, and Sculpt Spell gets used by the wizard when he's trying to look like a cleric (fireballs look like flamestrikes) or just avoid frying the party.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Personally, I don't think anything is wrong with metamagic. Something is wrong with the costing of some metamagic feats (Widen Spell, for instance, is horribly overpriced). Other metamagic feats shine primarily in odd situations. (Enlarge Spell, for instance, is tremendously effective in mass-combat situations where the range of a firestorm or flamestrike is a serious limiting factor. Similarly, Still Spell is tremendously useful for a character who wants to play a melee style Eldritch Knight without access to Spellsword or other ASF eliminating factors).

If people don't use metamagic, I can think of a few explanations:

1. They haven't properly calculated the opportunity cost. A previous poster asked "Why cast an empowered fireball when you can cast two fireballs?" You can't cast an empowered fireball instead of two fireballs unless you use a spellpoint system. You cast an empowered fireball instead of a cone of cold.

2. They haven't seen metamagic in action. There are a lot of things people don't properly appreciate without demonstration.

3. They think that a metamagic feat has to be good for all spells in order to be worthwhile. Quicken Spell, for instance, is a pretty lousy feat for Expeditious Retreat or color spray. But it's pretty darn good for Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. Similarly, it's not worth empowering a Chill Metal or a cure serious wounds, but an empowered Flame Strike is quite deadly.

4. They think that a metamagic feat has to be useful on the same spells at all levels. Empowered Fireball is great at level 10. It knocks the socks of cone of cold. By level 15, cone of cold is a better choice. However, an empowered cone of cold will knock the socks of a delayed blast fireball at that point. Similarly, a maximized scorching ray typically does more damage than disintegrate around level 11 and uses up a lower level spell slot.

Every metamagic feat isn't good for every character. An evocation prohibited enchanter doesn't have much use for empower spell. Then again, great cleave isn't good for every fighter either. But it is very effective for some fighters.

 

[reanjr]

For Wizards, it is rarely cost-effective to metamagic a spell. It is almost always more advantageous to simply memorize a higher level spell. There are some specific cases that can be planned for that this is not the case, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

For sorcerers, without bonus feats with which to take metamagic feats and with the increased casting time, it just doesn't seem like a popular option. In my opinion, sorcerers should get 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level bonus feats for metamagic and should not increase the casting time. They're already weak as it is.

Wizards need a way to use metamagic feats without using up those high level slots. The main problem I see is that the only spells that are low enough level to metamagic are also the spells that seem most off-kilter on the resultant level. For instance, casting a maximized ice storm (7th level) for 30 points of damage to anything within a 40 ft. cylinder seems a bit weak. But compared to a maximized burning hands (4th level) at 20 points of damage to a 15' cone, it's powerful. And are you really going to give up one of your high level slots? Probably not. You're much more willing to waste a 4th level slot on a weak spell than a 7th level one, if only it weren't that much weaker and useless. There are too few spells and situations that are worthwhile. This problem is exacerbated by stacking metamagics (a quickened maximized magic missile would be nice to have, but not as an 8th level spell).

There are several different things that could be used to replace the spell level adjustment of metamagic. Casting time, expensive and specific material components, XP, etc. I think any of these would be more viable options than increased spell level.

But there is still the buy-in cost of getting a metamagic feat, though for wizards, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

In summary, it's because metamagic feats suck. They're a neat idea, but horribly balanced.

 

[Zelligars Apprentice]

Cool! I got a new Metamagic Feat for Christmas!

Personally, I am looking forward to using my character's shiny, brand new Silent Spell feat. It will make life A LOT easier for him.

Of course, this is for a Dark Sun game, where being caught casting a spell generally gets both the authorities and a lynch mob chasing you right quick.

(For the record, the character is a Preserver. Among other things.)

The point is, it depends on the game and the situation. Some games they come in very handy. In others, they are almost worthless.