What's wrong with metamagic?

[cignus_pfaccari]

According to the psionics 3.5 rules (XPH), you cannot manifest a power with a cost beyond your manifester level (i.e. a 4th level psion or wilder cannot improve a second level power if the total is over 4 pp to manifest).

Note that using Empower Power is often a better choice than augmenting the power. I noticed that when throwing massive attack powers with my epic psion.

Brad

 

[Psion]

Frankly, I don't understand why some people think sorcerers get gypped when it comes to metamagic feats.

Probably because of quicken.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Empower Spell: You're able to improve a low level spell's performance by 50% by casting it at 2 levels higher. This is never as good as casting the spell twice. Variables rolled tend to an average result somewhere in the middle, which means that your Empowered Fireball may do 45-50 points instead of around 30-35 and you're using a 5th level slot. It may seem like a pay-off when you roll high and do around 75 points damage, but there are 5th level spells that are often more effective and if you roll low and only get 15-20 damage, that is only increased to maybe an average result. This isn't nearly as effective as the higher level spell that cannot be prepared because of this.

I think you are overlooking two major elements in this assertion.

Firstly, and most importantly, the effect on something with resistance. If a 10th level wizard casts fireball twice against an equivalent foe with resist elements he is likely to do 35 -20 = 15 damage each time, if he casts a 5th level cone of cold he is likely to do 35-20 = 15 points of damage. If he casts an empowered fireball he is likely to do 52-20 = 32 damage in one shot and can still do an ordinary fireball next round for a total of 46 damage. Empower here allows him to break the damage cap for spells cast at his level AND they will punch more damage through resistances - often important!

Cheers

 

[Kilroy]

Metamagic is mostly useless unless you plan to use it a lot. Taking a feat for something that only comes up a couple times in a campaign is a waste, unless the couple times it comes up provides as much cumulative benefit as a different feat that applies several times each day, fight or game would.

I've had one character use Metamagic, and that was a 3.0 Incantatrix, which totally broke the game. With a Lesser Rod of Maximize, spontaneous Metamagic as a sorceror, Improved Metamagic and free Metamagic 1/day as an Incantatrix, I could drop a silly pile of power onto single spells, and those spells more often than not ended combats before they started. (We were playing without the Sudden Metamagic feats, or it would have been even worse.)

There's nothing quite like the look of horror on the DM's face when his big bad boss melee monster gets hit by a Split Maximized Twin Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement and goes from a mid 40+ Strength to a 1, no save. Not bad for a 5th level spell.

 

[Kilroy]

Also, Chain Spell is the best thing ever. Kittens for everyone!

 

[ptolemy18]

How do you have persistant summoned monsters? As far as I know it only works on personal and fixed range (i.e. prayer, recitation, various detect) spells.

Maybe this is a change between 3.0's TOME AND BLOOD version and the 3.5 version (which I assume is in COMPLETE ARCANE? I don't have that book)... in any case, I will say that if that's the case, the 3.5 version obviously SUCKS!

Jason

 

[Sir Elton]

Maybe this is a change between 3.0's TOME AND BLOOD version and the 3.5 version (which I assume is in COMPLETE ARCANE? I don't have that book)... in any case, I will say that if that's the case, the 3.5 version obviously SUCKS!

Jason

YEP!

 

[beaver1024]

This point really needs to be hammered home. If your campaign has a Barnes & Spellbooks on every corner then your mages are going to have access to a wide enough range of spells that many metamagics are unappealing. (though persistent rocks regardless of everything else!)

IMC I don't have free and easy access to new spells. I don't restrict it horribly but spells beyond 3rd or 4th level are a pain to get because there are so few casters at those levels and they tend to be leery of giving up their mystical monopolies (analyze dwoemer/legend lore) or providing building-shattering firepower to people they don't know very well.

Actually the point that needs to be hammered home is that if you're playing in these types of campaigns, you have bigger problems than metamagic. Considering one of the major aspects of a spellcasting class is spellcasting, playing in a campaign that severely restricts that via restricted spell acquisition or roleplaying spellcasting restrictions means that you're playing a crippled character anyway. For a crippled character pretty much anything would be useful, no matter how substandard they are. E.g a fighter without weapons, would consider even a non-magical, non-masterwork, non-special material dagger to be useful at 10th level.

Similarly the point about metamagic "rocking" for sorcerers. It's not so much that metamagic rocks, rather sorcerers sucks and needs anything they can get to expand their restricted abilities. Under core rules, metamagic are the only way.

 

[soulcat]

Actually the point that needs to be hammered home is that if you're playing in these types of campaigns, you have bigger problems than metamagic. Considering one of the major aspects of a spellcasting class is spellcasting, playing in a campaign that severely restricts that via restricted spell acquisition or roleplaying spellcasting restrictions means that you're playing a crippled character anyway. For a crippled character pretty much anything would be useful, no matter how substandard they are. E.g a fighter without weapons, would consider even a non-magical, non-masterwork, non-special material dagger to be useful at 10th level.

Restricting spell availability isn't crippling a spellcaster, it's thought provoking. It's making the player think, oh my character can cast 4 5th level spells now, what am I going to do with that. Spell research in down time is one solution, metamagic feats is another, go adventuring in search of more spells is another...

Allowing characters easy access to spells is crippling, cos judging by the responses in this thread it turns wizards (highly intelligent, academic people) into combat junkies!!! Combat is only a part of roleplay, not all of it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The biggest problem I think is that they are not proportional in power to the power-creep experienced by using supplemental materials. In other words, in games where only the core rules are used, metamagic seems to get used and has its place, particularly in scrolls and magic items. But compared to other feats and spells from supplements, it can't hold a candle. Thanee said it best - why empower a fireball, when you can use firebrand? Simple answer - if there IS no firebrand to use, then Empowered fireballs are both effective and well-costed.

For a practical answer, in games where supplements are a given, I'd say beefing up is required, possibly just doing away with "Sudden" metamagic and using them as the standard metamagics. Though I must say I like Gez's answer best so far. It shows a consistency that the current system lacks (And quicken spell is most likely overpriced in truth).

I think there is a second reason to use Empowered fireballs above firebrand or cone of cold and similar spells besides range and area - The average damage of an empowered fireball is higher before 15th level. At 10th level, the fireball effectively deals 15d6 points of damage, while the cone of cold only deals 10d6. The 2 points difference in the saving throw DC probably will reduce the effective damage a bit, but not enough to make it not worth a try