What's wrong with metamagic?

[Joker]

Maybe this is a change between 3.0's TOME AND BLOOD version and the 3.5 version (which I assume is in COMPLETE ARCANE? I don't have that book)... in any case, I will say that if that's the case, the 3.5 version obviously SUCKS!

Jason

I'm looking at the tome and blood version and it too says that it only works on spells with a personal or fixed range. The difference with the 3.5 version is that in 3.5 it costs a spell slot six levels higher instead of four. That part does blow but I guess no-one was waiting for clerics running around with divine favor/power all day. The feat still gives powerful options IMO.

 

[swrushing]

Considering one of the major aspects of a spellcasting class is spellcasting, playing in a campaign that severely restricts that via restricted spell acquisition or roleplaying spellcasting restrictions means that you're playing a crippled character anyway...


Similarly the point about metamagic "rocking" for sorcerers. It's not so much that metamagic rocks, rather sorcerers sucks and needs anything they can get to expand their restricted abilities. Under core rules, metamagic are the only way.

I think it ought to be hammered home that the belief that having less than bulging spellbooks (full of many spells beyond the base ones gained for levelling) is "not right" or "crippling" IMX goes very often with the "sorceror is weak/crippled" judgements.

On the contrary side of things, my experience in campaigns where bulging spellbooks were not the norm and where the time and money issues for spellbooks mattered and where loss/destruction of spellbooks was a reality just like it was for other items, the sorcerer and wizard played out fairly evenly.

 

[apsuman]

Actually the point that needs to be hammered home is that if you're playing in these types of campaigns, you have bigger problems than metamagic. Considering one of the major aspects of a spellcasting class is spellcasting, playing in a campaign that severely restricts that via restricted spell acquisition or roleplaying spellcasting restrictions means that you're playing a crippled character anyway. For a crippled character pretty much anything would be useful, no matter how substandard they are. E.g a fighter without weapons, would consider even a non-magical, non-masterwork, non-special material dagger to be useful at 10th level.

Similarly the point about metamagic "rocking" for sorcerers. It's not so much that metamagic rocks, rather sorcerers sucks and needs anything they can get to expand their restricted abilities. Under core rules, metamagic are the only way.

Oh pleeeeeze!

By the rules, wizards get 2 spells per level added to their spell book. If you play in a campaign where the wizard upon reaching 10th level says "I just completed the necessary research on two new spells, Wall of Stone, and Summon Monster V, which is great because I already have these scrolls of Cloudkill, Teleport, and Cone of Cold that we took off that dead mage and I have been itching to put them in my spellbook." Then, imho, your campaign is the problem.


imho, mind you, imho.


g!

 

[kigmatzomat]

Actually the point that needs to be hammered home is that if you're playing in these types of campaigns, you have bigger problems than metamagic. Considering one of the major aspects of a spellcasting class is spellcasting, playing in a campaign that severely restricts that via restricted spell acquisition or roleplaying spellcasting restrictions means that you're playing a crippled character anyway. For a crippled character pretty much anything would be useful, no matter how substandard they are. E.g a fighter without weapons, would consider even a non-magical, non-masterwork, non-special material dagger to be useful at 10th level.

First off, I don't cripple or severely restrict spell acquisition however it is done in a fashion rational for the game world. A fireball spell is on par with rocket launcher; why wouldn't a lawful society have some basic guidelines, ethical if not legal, for their transfer? The only mage in a city of sufficient level to cast Legend Lore/Analyze Dwoemer (their main source of income) is not going to hand a potential competitor the keys to the cashbox.

In general, society-helping spells are available without much effort unless I have a plot-based reason for them not to be. (like the diviner monopolist) Charms, compulsions, and damage dealing spells (particularly area effect spells) are "licensed" spells in the lawful societies; someone has to vouch for you or face some form of repurcussion, be it social or legal. Being in a noble's good books, joining a mage's society, the thieves' guild, getting it through a temple, etc all provide ways for a mage to lay hands on spells.

Or you can venture to one of the less lawful regions to risk being attacked in the streets, sold into slavery and used as a fondue seasoning so you can buy whatever spells you want. Hey, these people are selling mind-control and stuff to blow up houses; they'll eat all kinds of stuff in a fondue.

 

[kigmatzomat]

One question for the "metamagic sux" crowd: Do you use the spellbook scribing costs & time?

The sheer cost of scribing high level spells at least in 3.0 made metamagics appealing. A lone 5th level spell took 6 days and 1,000gp to scribe. At 9th level it's a 10-day process at 1,800gp. If you have to buy scrolls of the spell (or other mages charge the same price for access to spellbooks) you can add another 1,000-4,000gp on to each spell you don't develop yourself.

I generally play sorcerors because a) they require less in-game planning b) have more style IMO and c) aren't as easily tied down.

 

[swrushing]

One of the big differences between sor and wiz that i recall from my game was that the wiz often spent much of his "spare" time nose deep in his books. The other characters, particularly my sorcerer, spent this time doing other things. The sor for instance, often spent time working on items and when not doing that, plying his social aptitude and, in my case, doing so by performing (maxed perform skill cross-class) in taverns and the like. While the money gained wasn't noticeable after 5th level or so, the contacts and just plain fun of it was a whole lot more enjoyable than "I send three days scribing spells."

"I spend one day making a wand and two days in the Brass Orchid playing and singing and drinking and getting to know some of the mercenaries that frequent there. Matter of fact, when possible, i will try to turn some of their war stories into songs, and see if that loosens their tongues even more." Much more fun. In these games, the wiz and sor were considered even more or less, a choice of style and preference.

That said, i have seen groups where the "downtime" was more or less handled as "well you have three weeks while the wizard scribes spells. Ok, now that thats done..." where there was no effort to let the other characters "do stuff" while the wizard paid his spellbook dues. (For most intents and purposes, this is saying "it takes no real time to scribe spells, bt can only be done in between adventures." it effectively is removing the time restriction.) In those groups, the wizard was seen as far preferrable to the sor.

and, i agree, one of the reasons i prefer PLAYING sorcerers is the major bookkeeping is done OUT OF GAME and IN GAME its all "how do i use what i have" on the fly, which just appeals a whole lot more to me.

One question for the "metamagic sux" crowd: Do you use the spellbook scribing costs & time?

 

[Dimwhit]

So I haven't read all this thread, but I thought I'd comment.

I love metamagic. By the time you're 17th level, they rock! That's where my Wizard is (or maybe he's 18th now). I have Empower, Maximize, Extended, and soon to get Silent. Why? Here are a few reasons.

Silent Spell - It's all about convenience. The ONLY reason I'm getting it is to that I can have a Silent Teleport ready at all times. Teleport only has a verbal component, so a silent version is perfect when you're bounced, silenced, etc.

Maximize/Empower - I like these. I have so many stinking spells each day (over 60 right now) that upping the levels just doesn't matter. My favorite? I currently spend a 9th-level spell slot on a Maximized, Empowered Vampiric Touch. At 18th level, that's an automatic 81 points of damage with a successful touch attack, and I get those as temp hit points for an hour. That's one nasty spell.

I Maximize a number of spells every day because I can. Taking the randomness out of some of those rolls comes in handy. Throw an Empower on top of that and suddently you have an 8th level lightning bolt that deals 90 points of damage. Very worth it in my book.

The other reason I like metamagic is because there aren't many other good feats for Wizards. Sure, my Wizard has Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration, as well as Focus/Greater Focus in a couple schools (well, only Greater in one school), but that's it. Just those and metamagic. Works great for me. I do think there are some that are worthless. Quicken Spell is completely stupid at a 4-level bump. But overall, I enjoy them.

 

[apsuman]

So I haven't read all this thread, but I thought I'd comment.

<snip>

Maximize/Empower - I like these. I have so many stinking spells each day (over 60 right now) that upping the levels just doesn't matter. My favorite? I currently spend a 9th-level spell slot on a Maximized, Empowered Vampiric Touch. At 18th level, that's an automatic 81 points of damage with a successful touch attack, and I get those as temp hit points for an hour. That's one nasty spell.


I Maximize a number of spells every day because I can. Taking the randomness out of some of those rolls comes in handy. Throw an Empower on top of that and suddently you have an 8th level lightning bolt that deals 90 points of damage. Very worth it in my book.

<snip>

FYI

That would be 60 (from the 10 d6) + (10d6)/2 for the maxed empoered lightning bolt

and

54 (from the 9d6) + (9d6) /2 for the maxed empowered vampric touch

from the srd

MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

g!

 

[Dimwhit]

Hmm, I did not know that. That certainly changes things.

I do still think they're all worth it.

 

[beaver1024]

One question for the "metamagic sux" crowd: Do you use the spellbook scribing costs & time?

The sheer cost of scribing high level spells at least in 3.0 made metamagics appealing. A lone 5th level spell took 6 days and 1,000gp to scribe. At 9th level it's a 10-day process at 1,800gp. If you have to buy scrolls of the spell (or other mages charge the same price for access to spellbooks) you can add another 1,000-4,000gp on to each spell you don't develop yourself.

I generally play sorcerors because a) they require less in-game planning b) have more style IMO and c) aren't as easily tied down.

Under 3.0 rules the way to get around this is to use the Magic of Faerun spellbook mastering rules, which are reproduced in Complete Arcane or use a Boccob's Blessed Book.

Under 3.5 rules spell scribing costs are halved and any spell takes at most 24 hours. The spellbook mastery rules and Boccob's Blessed Book are stilll options.