Whats wrong with the 3E fighter?

[Zelc]

Rapid shot, multishot, magic str comp bow, magic archer bracers, specialization, good dex and str with boosters, leads to him doing huge damage outputs with tons of full attacks while others charge in to close.

Are you using Rapid Shot with Manyshot on the same action? That could be the problem here (you can't do that). Otherwise, archer builds are usually out-damaged by those 2-handed melee weapons, not to mention dominated by the full casters and high level spells.

 

[Jack99]

See i keep hearing the boring part.Seems to me plays like that don't think hey what can I do.
Lets see charge,bull rush trip,disarm,sunder, just to name a few. The fighter should always be thinking what can I do not gee I guess I full attack cant do anything else.

Charge he can do. I will give you that. But let's take a look at the rest of your things to do.

Assuming level 10+, since this is when the fighter starts seriously lacking.

Sunder: Not only does it destroy potential loot, but it is also really only helpful against humanoids who use either weapons or magical items.

Bull rush: really starts to suffer at this level, since most monsters are bigger and stronger than the fighter, and many have more than 2 legs.

Disarm: See sunder.

Trip: see bull rush

Grapple: let's not even go there.

A sword&board won't deal enough damage to keep the monsters on him, he will suffer from a poor ratio of power-attack to by-pass DR and other defenses. Same with the archer and the two-weapon sucker. The two-hander pouncer can dish out serious damage, but he is even more than the rest, a one-trick-pony.

Basically, the fighter is boring, because at higher level, he is a liability instead of an asset. Splat-books help this a bit (especially PHB2 and Bo9S), but splat-books just make casters even more ridiculous.

Now, maybe this doesn't come up in your campaigns, and that is great for you. But lets face it, looking at the boards, there can be little doubt that a great number of people think the fighter is seriously underpowered and thus (in their minds) not fun to play, because people like to feel useful, not useless.

Cheers,

 

[Darklone]

Are you using Rapid Shot with Manyshot on the same action? That could be the problem here (you can't do that). Otherwise, archer builds are usually out-damaged by those 2-handed melee weapons, not to mention dominated by the full casters and high level spells.

I'm not so sure about that... especially the caster part. Our archers (different builds) rock. scout/ranger with Greater Manyshot, bard archers, druid archers... we don't have a fighter archer right now, but last time I saw one (with Greater Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery) it was an almost certain +100 point damage dude at huge distances and every round a full attack action. Let's see... str 20 is not so high for fighters, let's assume a +2 bow for a level 12 fighter... that's 5 * (1d8+13) at very high to hit values. And there are plenty possibilities to increase that.

 

[Voadam]

Are you using Rapid Shot with Manyshot on the same action? That could be the problem here (you can't do that). Otherwise, archer builds are usually out-damaged by those 2-handed melee weapons, not to mention dominated by the full casters and high level spells.

No, using rapid shot with improved rapid shot for full attacks gives a whole extra attack at no penalty and can be combined with haste. More shots = more improved crits too. Manyshot is for surprise rounds or when he needs to use a move action.

Many shot usually out performs the single melee attack as the weapon damage enhancements go to each arrow. The two handed power attacking dwarven artefact hammer wielder might do more though, but often he must do a one shot charge while the archer can stand back and full attack.

Fighters being weak against will saves is the same as the rogue or barbarian or melee fighter, it hasn't slowed his offensive damage output compared to the other party members.

 

[Stoat]

Otherwise, archer builds are usually out-damaged by those 2-handed melee weapons, not to mention dominated by the full casters and high level spells.

Not picking on Zelc, because I've seen this general sentiment a few times in the thread. I thought the general consensus was that casters (particularly Wizards and Sorcs) were less effective dealing direct damage. Certainly in my experience, fighters provide frightening levels of damage at higher levels. Spellcasters seem to edge them out through the use of Save or Die effects and by tactical battlefield control.

 

[Felix]

Not picking on Zelc, because I've seen this general sentiment a few times in the thread. I thought the general consensus was that casters (particularly Wizards and Sorcs) were less effective dealing direct damage. Certainly in my experience, fighters provide frightening levels of damage at higher levels. Spellcasters seem to edge them out through the use of Save or Die effects and by tactical battlefield control.

The direct damage they deal is generally spread out over an area. They may (or may not) deal more damage in total, but it's less concentrated than a fighter's damage.

 

[Lord Slaw]

Yes, generic, unimaginative Fighters are weak and boring. BUT, when a little creativity is put into the field, or an effective prestige class is implemented, Fighters can dominate, as they are meant to do.

However, I can't think of any time in recent memory that I have gone with the Roy-style single-class Fighter. And yet, one of my high points in D&D was using a Githyanki Fighter / Dervish / Battle Trickster (with a level or two in Rogue). He played like a Fighter, and for all intents and purposes, was one - but those Dervish abilities and a few movement skill tricks made him one heck of a crazy combatant.

We were fighting against a small group of Drow (with class levels), and one of them was mounted on a Huge Giant Wasp. I took a massive sprint up a wall (with longstrider for a little extra distance), shoved off at the very top, and landed squarely on the back of the low-flying Giant Wasp. I then proceeded to beat the hell out of the Drow rider with a Large Greatsword. He tried to defend himself, but those psionics made me pretty difficult to hit, not to mention he was strapped into the saddle too tightly to allow much movement. After wailing on him for a round or two (barely hanging on to the wasp - he just couldn't shake me), I used my gross Strength score to tear him out of the saddle and throw him right off his mount. He was dead when he hit the ground about 80 feet below (he had gone into a climb in an effort to make me lose my balance). I then hacked one of the beast's wings right off, which sent it into a crazy tailspin, and I was flung clear off. Fortunately, I managed to catch a ledge on the way down, resulting in minimal damage and a dislocated shoulder, which I quickly jammed back into place. The wasp crashed to the ground, where it was quickly dispatched by the other players, and I proceeded to Dervish Dance through the remaining enemies. I kept the wasp's stinger as a souvenir.

That was, without a doubt, the coolest thing I had ever done. And it's mostly thanks to a high Strength score, good skill points from a decent Intelligence score, a lot of fun feats (like Monkey Grip), and two Skill Tricks. The Dervish abilities didn't even come into play - everything I did could have been done by a lucky Fighter with a lot of creativity.

 

[AllisterH]

I'm not sure those supporting the fighter realize the'yre undermining their own argument when they list magic items.

That's my main problem with the fighter. Strip a >10th level caster of his magical gear and in most cases, all you do is lower their stamina. They basically can duplicate all of the magical gear effect with their OWN powers.

Strip a fighter of gear and it is all types of FAIL.

 

[Nifft]

I took a massive sprint up a wall (with longstrider for a little extra distance)
[...]
everything I did could have been done by a lucky Fighter with a lot of creativity.

Except for the bit about running up a wall and casting a spell. (Longstrider is a range Personal spell, so I know nobody else cast it on you.)

What you describe is an iconic Psychic Warrior trick. That's a class which doesn't suck at all.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lord Slaw]

Except for the bit about running up a wall and casting a spell. (Longstrider is a range Personal spell, so I know nobody else cast it on you.)

Sorry, I neglected to mention that - potion at the start of battle, since our DM is OK with range personal potions.

As for the Psychic Warrior bit, yeah, that is one of their tricks (kind of what I was shooting for), but I managed to create a similar effect using nothing magical or psionic in nature (barring the longstrider, but that wasn't necessary). Just plain old vanilla Fighter with a complete disregard for their own safety.

By the way, I agree - Psychic Warrior is awesome.