What's wrong with the single-classed Ranger?

[Kai Lord]

why would this be true? did you skip the section of the epic book telling you to throw out death by massive damage?

No, I just read the big section in the middle called "Feats". Death of Enemies is a nice little feat available only to classes with Favored Enemies.

Either way, the standard ranger is a 1 trick pony. He's forced into 2wf

No he isn't.

and his favored enemy is completely up to the dm as to when it's used.

So? What kind of campaign doesn't have humans in it? Or dragons, demons, undead, or aberrations? Boom, there's your five. And those are just some catch-all enemies to choose in case your DM was a complete jerk. Classes aren't designed to be jerk-proof, just cool and functional.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My biggest problems with the ranger are that, in the PH, his spell lists are too little, too late.

Something often missed when looking at spell lists is the value of the spell list itself, irrespective of whether it is allowable to cast the spell at your level. What I have in mind is scrolls and wands. There are spells on both the ranger and paladin list that are great in an emergency, even if you have less than a 100% chance of casting successfully. And wands don't care what your caster level is.

Wands of Sleep, CLW, CMW, and CSW are good choices for a ranger of any level.

A 10th level ranger has a 90% chance of successfully casting Freedom of Movement from a scroll.

So don't wait until you can cast the spell yourself before taking advantage of it.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

But the main change he did that i think is the best is dropping favored enemies for favored terrains. The ranger should but more deadly on his home turf, harder to spot and hide from. As he travels and levels up he can learn how to become effective in more types of land.

Interesting. How does it work? You give the favored ennemy bonuses (including damage bonus) whenever the Ranger is in his favored terrain?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

A lot is made of the skills too. True, they are great to have, but how much mileage you get out of them relative to combat type stuff also depends heavily on the campaign.

.

Yeah. but the same is true for every class ability in the game. how much mileage a fighter gets from bonus feats of beating people a lot highly depends on how amny fights you get into in your campaign. In my campaigns, which are usually more intelligent enemy/skill use oriented the fighters mad feats don't mean as much as in a dungeon crawl cmapaign. Fights happen almost every session, yet they happen a lot less than skill check encounters, like stealth missions, diplomacy, gather information, wilderness skills etc.

 

[Christian]

Interesting. How does it work? You give the favored enemy bonuses (including damage bonus) whenever the Ranger is in his favored terrain?

Typically, favored terrain bonuses are applied to skills. Eg. +x to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Wilderness Lore when in the favored terrain.

 

[StGabriel]

Rangers ... blah

I once heard a discussion of Masters of the Wild point out quite succinctly why ranger's suck: there is NO reason not to take a prestige class with them.

There are some almost useful spells in the ranger repertoire, yes, but you have to wait FOREVER to get them. And that's basically all you're getting. I mean, yay, yet another favored enemy that I'll see once every 5 adventures, if I'm lucky.

The Monte ranger is WAY overpowered. I'd never let that get used in a campaign. It gets almost the same number of free feats as a fighter along with a ton of other free stuff and better saves. Monte has interesting ideas, and I think he was on to something with the need to change the ranger, but . . . he always seems to overpower things. I just got done reading through his prestige classes in Eldritch Magic II and I don't think a single one of them is terribly well balanced (maybe the diplomancer).

Great. My ranger can cast nondetection, at the same time that the pure casters are getting their 8th level spells. Gee, I feel powerful.

If nothing else, I think that the free ambidex and twf should be removed, and replaced by a free feat at level 2 and 4 (with or without armor restriction). Tracking stays as level 1. Then at least a ranger would be the same power-wise whether one decided to go with the two-weapon cliche or not. If rangers are underbalanced with two free feats, they are DEFINITELY underbalanced when they don't even use those two free feats.

I personally think that bonus vs. monster types should go away. It's just too spotty of an ability. A ranger might dominate one adventure when his favored enemy is predominant and then suck the next three when he doesn't see another one. Terrain types is one interesting idea. I say though, give the ranger further bonuses to track, set snares, sniping, and other generic nature warrior type skills instead. If anything I'd like to see rangers as the guerilla warfare specialists of 3e not as specialists at killing X's, Y's and Z's, and casting low level druid magic while fighting only in one specific manner (twf) for no specific reason.

---
StGabriel, the Taoist saint.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Rangers ... blah

I once heard a discussion of Masters of the Wild point out quite succinctly why ranger's suck: there is NO reason not to take a prestige class with them.

If you're advancing to Level 20 with a PrC, you might as well stick it out as a Ranger. At level 23 he's killing every Favored Enemy he hits with a Crit. Four levels later and he's casting Epic Spells.

There are some almost useful spells in the ranger repertoire, yes, but you have to wait FOREVER to get them. And that's basically all you're getting. I mean, yay, yet another favored enemy that I'll see once every 5 adventures, if I'm lucky.

Your campaign only has encounters once every five adventures? How random.

 

[1337 h4xor]

No, I just read the big section in the middle called "Feats". Death of Enemies is a nice little feat available only to classes with Favored Enemies.

the discussion your brought up was that he kills everything he hits on a crit.... i didnt realize there was an everything option under favored enemy. So besides a single spell he's not as good of an acrher as a fighter, and even with hunters mercy he's outclassed by the archer prcs. He cant sneak or hide as well as rogues and as i said before weather or not you encounter a favored enemy is up to the dm. Even randomly a 20th level ranger has a 5 in (entire MM & MM2) chance not the best oddds there.

as i said before 1 trick pony and his 1 trick is't better than any other classes at it.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Okay, is it fair to say that every class is powerful at epic levels? (Except for Sorcerers. They got shafted.) Honestly, I don't care about the Ranger after level 20.

All I care about is the meat and potatoes Ranger from level 2 to 19. In this range, from personal experience, the Ranger is not as effective in a party against creatures of equal CR. Note how I say, "in a party," since this is the only way to judge the effectiveness of a class.

The spell list is ineffective in a party, as the Ranger does not exist in a vacuum. The spells the Ranger gets are ineffective at the level he receives them, as somebody else has inevitably had access to those spells five levels earlier.

And favored enemy, I agree, is a neat ability. However, from level 2 to 19, having 3 levels of Rogue for the 2d6 sneak attack is oftentimes more useful and just as effective than having 15 levels of Ranger for a piddly +4, +3, +2, or +1 to damage against specific foes.

Nevertheless, I believe there is a section in the PHB that states that new spells can be added to the core spell lists, and gives rules/guidelines for doing so. So Hunter's Mercy is supported by the PHB. Heh heh. One of the perks of being a spellcaster.... ---Kai Lord

Since that spell is so balanced, let's give it to all other divine casters as a 1st level spell. I'm sure the PH supports that.

Anyway, when you started this thread you specifically stated the "PHB Ranger" as the topic. Hunter's Mercy is not a part of that equation.

If you'd like to discuss that spell, I'd like to point you to a feat I made specifically for Fighters. It's called:

Kill Anything In One Hit

Like it?

Psyduck---
While I agree that a 15th lv Ranger with summon IV sucks, A Ranger that has that spell and a dire bear is downright scary.

A Dire Bear at 15th level? Are you aware that a Dire Bear is CR 7? Your average Pit Fiend (CR 16) will easily blow through the Buffed Dire Bear.

Elder-Basilisk---
Re: A fighter with track being comparable to a ranger--don't kid yourself.

Of course it won't be comparable, but does it really need to be? How often are you tracking a single goblin in a blizzard? Do you really need to have +26 to Track something?

Elder-Basilisk---
Re: Entangle at high levels.

Right.

 

[Kai Lord]

So besides a single spell he's not as good of an acrher as a fighter,

But he does have that spell, so your point is moot. The Ranger is a spellcaster, and that is factored into his balance.

and even with hunters mercy he's outclassed by the archer prcs.

If what you're trying to say is that the Ranger is outclassed in archery by an Archer PrC, I've got one thing to say: Duh.

If you're trying to say they outclass the Ranger as a character then I'm afraid you're wrong again. How many of those Archer PrC's can Polymorph? The funny thing is, the straight Ranger will be attacking entire types of monsters at +4/+5 damage, with Heighten Spell allowing him to dish out 15 or so Hunter's Mercys a day, more with wands.

The dedicated Archer PrCs might be better archers on average, but not by much, and the Ranger will always hit when it counts.

He cant sneak or hide as well as rogues

Wrong again. The Ranger has Hide and Move Silently as class skills which means he has the exact same level caps as a Rogue. Spells like Forestfold and Camouflage make the Ranger BETTER at hiding and sneaking than a Rogue wearing an elven cloak and boots!

and as i said before weather or not you encounter a favored enemy is up to the dm. Even randomly a 20th level ranger has a 5 in (entire MM & MM2) chance not the best oddds there.

Right. Because between those two books, there is only one Magical Beast, one Aberration, one evil Outsider, one Dragon, and one Undead.