What's wrong with the single-classed Ranger?

Well now...I must say this is a good discussion so far.

Now, I would just like to point out that everyone has compared the Ranger to a fighter, Druid, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard at some point in this thread.

No, the Ranger may not be on par with the fighter, but he's really close.

No, the Ranger can't sneak as well as a rogue, but he's really close

No, the Ranger doesn't have a comparable spell list to the druid, wizard, or Sorcerer, but he does have magic available to him.

Seems to me if you want a mix of all of these, you should try playing a Ranger. Animal companion (not as good as druid), warrior hp and BAB (not as many fighting feats as fighter), stealth (not as much as rogue), and spells (similar to Paladin). Can any other class do that???

The closest would be the Bard, and the Ranger's HP and BAB is much better than the bard's, while the bard has no animal companion. Sure, the bard has more spells, but the Ranger is more of a warrior type.

Point being: let's not compare a jack-of-all-trades to a specialist. No one is comparing a Bard to a sorcerer or Rogue or anything. We shouldn't do it with the Ranger, for the Ranger is a nice blend of all of it.
 

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1337 h4xor said:


the discussion your brought up was that he kills everything he hits on a crit.... i didnt realize there was an everything option under favored enemy. So besides a single spell he's not as good of an acrher as a fighter.



Actually, if you want to go with core only, the Ranger is the best archer amongst the fighter types. He has warrior progression BAB, and in addition he has spells that greatly aid him as an archer, like Entangle, Wind Wall, and so forth, plus animal companions to block for him while he shoots arrows. He also has the neccessary skills to be a truly great archer, since he can attack from hiding with Hide and Move Silently, and can see or hear the enemy before they see or hear him because of Spot and Listen. The Fighter has none of that.
 

ConcreteBuddha said:
Okay, is it fair to say that every class is powerful at epic levels?

Yes, but that wasn't the point. Someone asked why should anyone stick it out as a Ranger for 20 levels. If you're 20th level, you can probably conceive of playing at 23rd level.

ConcreteBuddha said:
All I care about is the meat and potatoes Ranger from level 2 to 19. In this range, from personal experience, the Ranger is not as effective in a party against creatures of equal CR. Note how I say, "in a party," since this is the only way to judge the effectiveness of a class.

That is incorrect. Playing individually without a party is a completely credible way to play the game, to say nothing of the many times a full-on party will need someone to scout ahead or just take something out by himself. I've played in solo campains for many years, and often times my characters are surrounded by a small entourage of NPC's, but still end up doing a fair share of tasks by themselves.

Face it, there are just going to be those times when you're going to need to split up to get the job done. It happens in almost every fantasy book and adventure.

ConcreteBuddha said:
Since that spell is so balanced, let's give it to all other divine casters as a 1st level spell. I'm sure the PH supports that. ;)

Anyway, when you started this thread you specifically stated the "PHB Ranger" as the topic. Hunter's Mercy is not a part of that equation.

When I said PHB Ranger I was more referring to the Core Ranger as opposed to any alt.rangers or Monte's Ranger. The Core PHB Ranger has access to spells and feats from other WoTC products, and since that is how 99% of gamers play that is the position I began the discussion from. I don't know anyone that plays with only the first three books, and frankly am not interested in defending such a base version of any class.

Just as Manyshot, Persistent Spell, Expert Tactician, and so on creep into most discussions about archers, clerics, rogues, and such the same holds true with the Ranger.

From now on consider my position to be in defense of the Official WoTC Ranger. That includes Masters of the Wild feats and spells as well as those from Magic of Faerun. Homebrewed feats don't count, and neither do options from 3rd party d20 companies. The WoTC Ranger is a character affected by no house rules, and he's stealthier than a Rogue and can utterly smack down with a bow. Oh yeah, he can do other things too. :cool:
 

Re: Re: Rangers ... blah

Originally posted by Kai Lord


Your campaign only has encounters once every five adventures? How random.

No, but the last campaign I played in with someone playing a ranger, she only got to fight her favored enemies once in every 5 or so adventures. We had encounters all the time, they just weren't giants, or magical beasts (her favored enemies).

Regarding the epic book. Who cares? The epic book is ridiculous all around. D&D has always gotten out of hand after level 15 or so unless the DM is really good. I'm glad that no gamers I have contact with even take that silly book seriously, I certainly don't think it enters into the discussion here.

Ranting aside, most of the lives of characters in campaigns I am, and I assume this holds for most, are spent in levels 1-10. The ranger just continues to suck more and more as he goes up through these level. While everyone else is getting new cool things, the ranger is holding out for ... ooh ... another 1st level spell at 6th level. Bah.

I think ranger's should get class-specific feats like thieves do at later levels, and bonus feats sprinkled through levels 1-10 that replace the ghost feats.

---
StGabriel, the Taoist saint.
 

Kai Lord---


It's pretty obvious that the Ranger is your favorite class. Your response on the "what's your favorite class" thread was the damning piece of evidence. ;)

Honestly, my favorite class is the Paladin and I'd argue till I was blue in the face if anyone said that paladins are ineffective.

If you truly feel that a ranger can stand with a party of fellow adventurers and pull his own weight, then more power to you. My own experience runs counter to this, but evenso: if you can play a ranger with the gusto that you have shown here, then maybe there is hope for that cursed class afterall.

Happy gaming.





P.S. (When are they going to give an overpowered spell like Hunter's Mercy to the paladin? I await the day...)
 

Kai Lord said:

That is incorrect. Playing individually without a party is a completely credible way to play the game

Indeed, I, for one, will fully support Kai Lord's position that it's completely okay to play with oneself.
 
 
 
 
 
BY.
 
By oneself.
 
 
Hong "I always get those two mixed up" Ooi
 

Re: Re: Re: Rangers ... blah

StGabriel said:

I think ranger's should get class-specific feats like thieves do at later levels, and bonus feats sprinkled through levels 1-10 that replace the ghost feats.
---

StGabriel, the Taoist saint.

I totally agree. I am working on a ranger variant for my games that allows the player to select special abilities as the character goes up in level. The concept of a wilderness warrior, an expert in guerilla warfare, sniping, and man of the jungle, is what I am making my ranger equivalent. I should have it done in a few days and when I do I will post it for some tweaking/insight/comments. I know there will be some balance issues to discuss but that is what these boards are about... opinions on how to make the game better for oneself. :)
 

Psyduck said:
A 4th level Ranger can snag a dire bat. What else better to help scout? Rangers can also get better animals when they level, so why not prepare a few magic fang spells???


Um, no. At 4th level, a Ranger has a caster level of 2. The Animal Friendship spell only lets you befriend your HD worth of animals unless you remain in one place for an extended period of time (i.e. unless you stop adventuring). If you give up adventuring, then you can have twice your spell casting level worth of HD in animal companions, but unless you do that, you just have your caster level, and a ranger's caster level is half his level.

While I agree that a 15th lv Ranger with summon IV sucks, A Ranger that has that spell and a dire bear is downright scary. We can even leave out summon IV, and use polymorph with a dire bear. Does a high level Ranger look a bit better now?

Since an adventuring ranger has to be 24th level to be able to have a dire bear animal companion, no, he doesn't look better. A 15th level adventuring ranger can have a 6 HD animal companion at most, a creature that would be toast in less than a round against almost any CR 15 encounter.

A ranger's animal companion is pretty useless most of the time.
 
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You should not undervalue the Ranger`s Skills.

Tracking is a very useful ability, and even a low-level Ranger has good chances to track someone.

Wilderness Lore can not only spare you the cheap train-rations, but it also proves that your character can survive alone in the dangerous enviroment - a Wizard would have real trouble, even if he uses is Magic Missile or similar spells to get some animals. (But who knows what diseases that animal had, or how it will taste after it panicked from the spell`s damage ...)

Hide and Move Silently, combined with Spot and Listen is very useful, and it gives the Rogue a better feeling when he is not alone on scouting missions (and in fact has a very capable warrior with him)

There are no real powerful spells on the ranger list (except certainly Polymorph Self), but remember he may use Wands of CUre Light, which is helpful alone as in a group...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

I only post because I believe my experience may have some value to the ranger haters.

I USED TO BE A RANGER HATER!

My logic went like this:

Why, OH WHY, would anyone ever play a single classed ranger. I even used to bemoan, why would anyone ever play a ranger past 1st level. After all, as everyone points out, the class is frontloaded. The next special ability after 1st level isn't until 4th with access to spells, 2nd favored enemy isn't until 5th level, etc.

I quickly revised my opinion on playing a ranger beyond 1st due to the obvious skills benefit. If playing a fighter with 1 level of ranger, I might take a second level to get the added skill points and ability to select ranger non fighter skills as non crossclassed.

But I was still persuaded that rangers got the shaft. What were the coolest class (IMHO) in 2nd ed. now were the worst class in 3rd perhaps along with bard and psion.

After all, if I want nature spells and fighting capability (twf) and track, I will just take one level of ranger and the rest druid at the loss of 4 pts of BAB (still getting 4 attacks) and an average of 19 HP with a gain of 2 good saves and 9th level casting.

If I want fighting capability with a bit of wilderness, I will take fighter and 1 or 2 levels of ranger.

If I want stealth and any of the above combinations I will simply add rogue into the mix.

However, after planning out numerous shadowlands encounters with the Hiruma family of the Crab clan in Rokugan, I realize the error of my ways.

I think one of the main reasons why people tend to dislike the ranger (at least if they were like me) is that the class progression seems to lack something. What I hear many people's arguments boiling down to, and what mine did as well, was that I don't want to advance in a class and not get any benefit out of it. If I want the BAB, I can advance in Fighter and get the same BAB as well as feats. If I want skills, I can advance in Rogue; spells, in druid; etc. Just look at it - its the one and only class that gets absolutely nothing from level 2 to 4 (with regard to special abilities). And I mean nothing. All other classes improve in some way. The spell casters all get better spells with cleric getting improved undead turning, wizard and sorcerer getting improved familiar abilities, bard getting improved performance special abilities and obsucre lore benefits, druid getting special abilities and magic, barbarian getting uncanny dodge, fighter getting feats, rogue getting evasion and uncanny dodge, etc.

AKA - WOTC - you all must of smoked up when doing the ranger - as simply spreading out the twf feats at level 1 to one bonus at level 2 and one bonus at level 4 (or 3) with a bit more choice would have fixed everything.

However, as I said, before I have completely changed my opinion of Rangers. What I realized is that what appears as no benefits and rangers getting shaft is in fact a mixture of the more core level progression benefits that are found no where else - namely best BAB, and good skills with some of the best skills in the game.

The reason why the ranger is VERY balanced with any other class and arguably even more powerful is because of the +1BAB, +4skill points, +d10 HP per level. That combination can be found in no other Core Class.

For all of those who thing that the favored enemy bonus blows - well there is some degree of truth to it. I must qualify that statement by, this ability perhaps more than any other will depend on the DM to make useful, but even so, it still is not that powerful of an ability. However, take into account that the bonus is given on top of the above combination of BAB, skills, and HD makes it look more like a perk than anything else. Add in low level spell casting ability and the Ranger turns out to be a GREAT class.

I am not suffering from the same crack WOTC smoke either. It really is a great class. However, that comes with certain conditions. While the class is versatile, it is also in some ways specialized. Rangers do make great guerrillas, but that comes with the condition that they are in natural (typically non-subterranean settings). A ranger WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY, will dominate a natural setting (to the same power that a druid would, but in a different way).

I also would like to emphasize the point made about the comparison between rangers and the other classes that are commonly compared to it - while the rogue is better at stealth, the fighter is better at direct combat, the druid better at spells, none of them individually are as good at multiple things. Even while it is true that a 1 Ranger/19 Druid will be far better at spell casting than a 20 Ranger and will be more powerful on many accounts, the Ranger still has some benefits that help to balance that out. They will still have more HPs, better BAB, and better weapons. Moreover, a druid is even more limited than a ranger when it comes to setting. While the ranger is more effective in a natural setting, they still can be very effective in a non-natural setting while a druid loses almost all of its real power
 

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