Whats your opinion on the Point Buy System

[evilbob]

Personally, I also hate randomness with a passion. I don't mind rolling dice to see who hit in a round of battle, but when it comes to effects that will last the entire game, it drives me nuts.

Recently I started a game where the DM allowed everyone to roll 4d6 - 1 OR take a 28 point-buy. (You could roll -and- do the math and then decide which you wanted.) This solved the problem of people getting low rolls (everyone had a minimum number they would have) and it allowed the lucky ones to have even better stats. Interestingly enough, one out of four people chose the point buy, and everyone else went with their rolls.

I also agree with the person who mentioned that having less randomness when determining HPs per level would be nice, but this doesn't bother me as much due to the law of averages (and the new rule about taking your max HP on level one). Also, my DM used the NWN idea (I -think- it's a NWN idea) that for the first 2 levels after level 1, if you rolled less than half your HP max, you could roll again. This helps make sure no fighters have 12 HP at level 3, and doesn't really hurt the balance down the line.

Edit: I also really like andargor's idea, too.

 

[Storminator]

nikolai: OK, that makes alot more sense.

<SNIP>

"Ok, take the d2, 1 is INT, 2 is DEX..."

Repeat until DEX is target number...

"Ok, take the d2, 1 is INT, 2 is CON..."

Repeat until either is target number, then work the remaining stats until they reach the right level.
<SNIP>

I don't think that's what he meant. I think once you've picked DEX as number 2, you never change it. At least that's how I'd do it. If I were to use this method, you would chose the order of the stats, chose the numbers of each type of die, then roll all the dice at once.

Of course, I have my own favorite method, so I wouldn't use it. I do the 4d6-1 method, but you only get to roll one PC. If you don't like him, you get a point buy, with points of 24+1d8. I like some randomness, even if it makes Pax hyperventilate.

PS

 

[nikolai]

...as a practical matter, I'd expect character creation to go as follows for a wizard.

"Ok, take the d2, 1 is INT, 2 is DEX..."

Repeat until DEX is target number...

"Ok, take the d2, 1 is INT, 2 is CON..."

Repeat until either is target number, then work the remaining stats until they reach the right level.

Yeah. I'd get around this by forcing them to choose exactly which dice they'll use and exactly which numbers are which stats before they roll anything. As you can imagine it will take longer setting everything up than other methods, though this can be offset by using a PC.

in this case, there is no particular advantage in picking a d6 over a d4 or a d4 over a d2. Only someone who really didn't care what his stats came out as would choose a d6.

You're right that many people wouldn't choose the higher dice. However they have to bear in mind that - if they're trying to max one stat and are randomly dumping in others - they're risking a low value in each dump stat. People who trust more to chance won't have as much risk of getting a weak score.

I'm not pretending this system is perfect by any means. But I think it must be possible to come up with a system which preserves the inter-character balance you get with point buy and introduces enough randomness to take the edge off all the practices you listed earlier in the thread. I think both sides have justifiable points in that you don't want unequal distributions of points across characters, but you also don't want precision min/maxing taking place.

Perhaps it'd be best to try and come up with a "random" system of generating stats, but which preserves the point-cost of ability scores between characters, as a first step. Player preferences can then be worried about later.

nikolai.

 

[Grog]

Sure, they are protected, but it usually only takes one archer or damage spell and they're out of the fight. Stoneskin will only result in you getting knocked to -12 instead of -22 then, shield doesn't make you invincible, invisibility is common enough that the enemy often has counter-measurements. In the worst case, the arcanist will find himself in an antimagic field. When you get down to it, some constitution and dexterity can save your life (and it has saved many wizards so far - and lack of it has surely doomed many).

You must consider that you have to start small, and at 1st level, everything will down you if you only have 4 hp!

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion too much, but an extra hit point or two isn't going to make much difference at 1st level, in most cases. At 1st level, any wizard that gets seriously targeted by enemies is probably going to go down. He may not die, but he'll at least get knocked out.

And like I said, at higher levels, spells can make up the difference. A wizard that faces any kind of serious opposition inside an antimagic field without friends to help him is a dead wizard, assuming he can't escape. It doesn't really matter what his stats are at that point.

 

[Murrdox]

I'm really disgustingly generous with HP.... I've had way too many players whose characters suffer from HORRIBLE rolling on their HP... ALL THE TIME. That 16 CON isn't going to help much when you keep rolling 1's and 2's for your Druid's HP 4 levels running.

So, I decided to institute a system where if you roll below a quarter of your hit die type, you get to roll again. This means Wizards reroll on 1's, Rogues reroll on 1's (we round down), Clerics reroll on 1's and 2's, Fighters reroll on 1's and 2's, and Barbarians reroll on 1's, 2's, and 3's.

Yes, it is a very generous system, I know. It's jut my system for ensuring that characters have at LEAST average hit points. I don't have a problem with characters with above average hit points, because I challenge them frequently.

 

[Celebrim]

nikolai: Ok, I think we are finally on the same wavelength. You would get randomness that way, but I'd have to try it to see how it works. The only worry I might have is 'in-betweeners' that have no effect on the stats, but you might have that in mind and not care about it, which is all the same to me.

grog: Down this sidetrack...

My impression as a DM in 3rd edition is that you pretty much have to have about 5 h.p/level to survive for any length of time in a 3rd edition campaign. Although it is great that 1st level wizards now have more than one spell to use before becoming useless and generally unfun to play, wizards are probably even less survivable through the low levels than they were in 1st ed. Monsters simply do way to much damage now, and mages tend to go down the first time something is able to look thier way. To counter this, wizards really need a 16 or better CON more than they need a 16 or better DEX and maybe as much as they need a 16 INT. Toughness may suck, but if you want to stay alive at the low levels it is well worth considering. After burning through alot of low level spell casters, my players have come up with the solution of 1st level fighters, then take wizard through all succeeding levels. This sacrifices a level of spell casting, but gains them +6 h.p. at low levels, a useful combat feat, access to martial weapons, and helpful Fort saves. Think Gandalf. It seems to work ok, but of course is probably suboptimal at mid to high levels.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

In 3e, you no longer need attributes of 16 or better.

Except, of course, if you want to cast spells of 7th-level or higher. Or take one of those feats with a prerequisites like DEX 19...

 

[Ravener]

For hit point rolls, I give players the option of rerolling on one lower die. If they roll a 4 on a d12, they can reroll on a d10, and so on, down to a d2. Once they reroll, they can't go back to a previous roll. Of course, wizards only get one chance to get a 3 or 4, but two chances to get at least a 2.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

quote:
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Originally posted by bret
In 3e, you no longer need attributes of 16 or better.
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Except, of course, if you want to cast spells of 7th-level or higher. Or take one of those feats with a prerequisites like DEX 19...

Remember, as long as your primary stat is 15, you can just boost your stat every 4 levels. A 15-Int/Cha mage will not have trouble casting spells, even if they never find any stat-boosting items.

I don't know about those 19+ stat feats, however. I think such feats should have a level requirement, eg BAB +x, base Will save +x, and so forth.

 

[Leopold]

28-32 point buy and it works rather well. Sure i have some hi powered players but they are heros can't fault them for that.