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What's Your "Sweet Spot" for a Skill system?

pemerton

Legend
And on what was the difficulty of the check based on? On how hard the meat was to cook properly or on the prevalence of bandits on the area?
Every skill in Torchbearer has a range of tasks and associated difficulties specified. From memory, the attempted task was to create 4 portions of preserved rations - the difficulty will have been that +1 (due to having to improvise tools).

I just find this sort of muddling together of unrelated things very confusing. Why would being bad at cooking increase your chances of being attacked by bandits?
No one was bad at cooking. As per the post you replied to,

The failure narration didn't have anything at all to say about the PC's ability as a cook; it took the form of the PCs' camp being brought to an unexpected end by the arrival of bandits trying to take them prisoner.​

Here is how I described it in an actual play report written the day after the session:
as Golin was getting ready to smoke the frog with his improvised cooking gear (all his real gear having been lost with his satchel while escaping from the Troll Haunt), the camp was approached by 3 bandits who demanded that the PCs surrender and come with them - a camp-ending twist!
 

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DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
I certainly have thoughts on this subject, but I'm not 100% sure where the sweet spot is or even theoretically "should" be. And it probably varies greatly from table to table. I just know that too much complexity bogs things down, and too much abstraction starts to feel weird (to me, at least).
For me, the "sweet spot" is between broad and player/table-defined skills and limited numbers of skills. For instance, Barbarians of Lemuria defaults to about 20 Careers per setting/minigame, and any given player character is highly unlikely to ever have ranks in more than 5 of them, but one of their ranked skills is likely going to apply to the vast majority of their "skill" rolls.

Or DwD Studios' d00 Lite system, where there's approximately 8-10 "specialties" (shared by all players) with each character having ranks in two of them. I prefer the BoL system mostly because each Career can be attached to any ability score as the task demands.
 

pemerton

Legend
So we use the character's cooking skill and the quantity of food, not to measure how well they cook at all, but instead we use it to measure an utterly unrelated likelihood of an bandit attack.
This is not accurate.

The Cook skill rating determines how likely the character is to achieve what they want, when what they want pertains to cooking.

In the event of a failure, it's up to the GM to narrate what happens, such that the character doesn't achieve what they want. In the episode of play that I described, what I (as GM) narrated was that there cooking was interrupted by curious bandits (whom the players correctly inferred were from, or at least connected to, the not-too-far-off moathouse).

(Having read on while writing this post, I see that @Thourne has made the same points as I've just typed out.)

As stated, the failed roll doesn’t equal being bad at cooking. That’s not what happened.

Perhaps it took longer than expected and the additional time attracted bandits. Surely bandits are the kinds of folks who might look for cook fires.
Just to elaborate on this - my recollection (now two weeks old, so imperfect) is that I referred to the character mucking about with his improvised equipment, and before he could finish the job, the bandits turn up . . .

But in practice this means that worse you're at cooking, more likely you're to be attacked by bandits (and suffer other completely unrelated misfortunes.)
The worse you are at cooking, the more likely it is that when you try and achieve cooking-related goals, you will instead experience something undesired.

That in your play experience they are unrelated seems like a weakness in the GMing. At my table, I can assure you that they are related. In this respect, I am conforming to these two bits of advice (written for Apocalypse World, but more broadly applicable; I say "conforming" rather than "following" because I worked out how to do this before AW was published, but these two bits of advice are very clear):

Vincent Baker (Apocalypse World rulebook, pp 110-11):
Make your move, but misdirect. Of course the real reason why you choose a move exists in the real world. Somebody has her character go someplace new, somebody misses a roll, somebody hits a roll that calls for you to answer, everybody’s looking to you to say something, so you choose a move to make. Real-world reasons. However, misdirect: pretend that you’re making your move for reasons entirely within the game’s fiction instead. Maybe your move is to separate them, for instance; never say “you missed your roll, so you two get separated.” Instead, maybe say “you try to grab his gun” - this was the PC’s move - “but he kicks you down. While they’re stomping on you, they drag Damson away.” The effect’s the same, they’re separated, but you’ve cannily misrepresented the cause. Make like it’s the game’s fiction that chooses your move for you, and so correspondingly always choose a move that the game’s fiction makes possible.

Make your move, but never speak its name. Maybe your move is to separate them, but you should never just say that. Instead, say how Foster’s thugs drags one of them off, and Foster invites the other to eat lunch with her. Maybe your move is to announce future badness, but for god sake never say the words “future badness.” Instead, say how this morning, filthy, stinking black smoke is rising from somewhere in the car yard, and I wonder what’s brewing over there?

These two principles are cause and effect. The truth is that you’ve chosen a move and made it. Pretend, though, that there’s a fictional cause; pretend that it has a fictional effect.

Together, the purpose of these two principles is to create an illusion for the players, not to hide your intentions from them.

John Harper (The Mighty Atom):
I've seen people struggle with hard moves in the moment. Like, when the dice miss, the MC stares at it like, "Crap! Now I have to invent something! Better make it dangerous and cool! Uh... some ninja... drop out of the ceiling... with poison knives! Grah!"

Don't do that. Instead, when it's time for a hard move, look back at the setup move(s) you made. What was threatened? What was about to happen, before the PC took action? Follow through on that. Bring the effects on screen. Bring the consequences to fruition.​

I can say from experience that, in Torchbearer, if the PCs are trying to prepare preserved rations from the meat of killer frogs that attacked them while they were lost in the Troll Fens, there will be established fiction to draw on to narrate the twist!
 


Thourne

Hero
A failure at cooking should be, IMO, wasted rations or save versus digestive complications. Perhaps with a slight chance of starting a fire.

A bandit attack is silly. "How did your PC die?"
"Well, Bob the Elf burned dinner..."
Entirely subjective to both the particular game and the table in play.
 

delericho

Legend
Outside of skill-based systems, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone hit a "sweet spot" - the closest I've seen is probably Pathfinder 1e, which combined a second set of skills, simplified some stuff, but retained a nice breadth and crunchyness. But that was still the best of a pretty bad bunch.

Regarding 5e, I'm increasingly minded to think that the skill "system" is like the encumbrance "system" and a bunch of other "systems" - the developers figured they needed something but they either ran out of time, or just plain didn't care enough, so we got something to fill the space.
 

Every skill in Torchbearer has a range of tasks and associated difficulties specified. From memory, the attempted task was to create 4 portions of preserved rations - the difficulty will have been that +1 (due to having to improvise tools).
But these seem to be simulationist considerations. It always seems rather confused to me to draw narrativist conclusions from simulationist premises. Why is the difficulty based on how hard the food is make, if that is actually not what prevents its successful completion? Like macarons are not harder to make than chocolate chip cookies because baking them makes you more prone to ninja attacks!

No one was bad at cooking. As per the post you replied to,

The failure narration didn't have anything at all to say about the PC's ability as a cook; it took the form of the PCs' camp being brought to an unexpected end by the arrival of bandits trying to take them prisoner.​

So if the cooking skill value doesn't measure how good the character is at cooking, what does it measure? Can we have master chef with poor cooking value, because they always get interrupted by things unrelated to their skill? And do the characters in setting know this and can they make informed decision based on this? Like when deciding who should prepare the food, do the characters know who is most likely to cause bad stuff to happen?
 

Celebrim

Legend
The point is that any test has meaningful stakes. So the decision to try and prep the rations is a meaningful choice. There’s risk involved.

The point is that if it isn't somewhat obvious to the player what the stakes of a test are, then there is a risk that from the players perspective everything is cloud cuckoo land where nothing has a rhyme or reason.

So for example, "I fail at cooking, therefore bandits arrive", makes no sense and while it does propel forward events it doesn't make for a narrative or a dramatic story.

By contrast, "We are being pursued by bandits. Should I stop to prepare a meal to help us recover or strength or push on to avoid losing time?" does make sense. It's the same test but now the stakes of the test are made clear. Now we actually have events tied to the narrative and we actually have a story and a dramatic choice for the player to make.

But, this is the rub. If that's really what we are doing, then "Failed at cooking, bandits show up" still makes absolutely no sense. Because if you imagine this situation, even if the players is failing at his cooking, what the consequences of that failure are should ultimately be predictable to the player. So the player might burn the dinner, in which case they don't get the full benefit of a meal in terms of fortifying the party. Or the player might take too long to make the dinner, in which case the player gets the choice to say, "Well, the hour we allocated to our break is coming to a close, we need to decide whether or not to extend the break or break camp without finishing dinner."

The problem in my experience with the Nar perspective that too often GMs are going, "What would be the fun in finding out whether or not the meal is well cooked? I know, we can have bandits show up!" And that's not actually collaborating on a story together.
 

So if the cooking skill value doesn't measure how good the character is at cooking, what does it measure? Can we have master chef with poor cooking value, because they always get interrupted by things unrelated to their skill? And do the characters in setting know this and can they make informed decision based on this? Like when deciding who should prepare the food, do the characters know who is most likely to cause bad stuff to happen?
I don't play D&D or D20 products, but Cooking is not just the act of food preparation, but the choice of water & processing thereof, the selection and storage of foodstuffs, and so forth. More soldiers have died from bad water than war, and spoilage was a constant issue for amies into WW2 (and beyond, for irregulars).

Too few gamers have suffered from field cooking, apparently. :sick:
 

Thourne

Hero
I don't play D&D or D20 products, but Cooking is not just the act of food preparation, but the choice of water & processing thereof, the selection and storage of foodstuffs, and so forth. More soldiers have died from bad water than war, and spoilage was a constant issue for amies into WW2 (and beyond, for irregulars).

Too few gamers have suffered from field cooking, apparently. :sick:
Dysentery is a killer
 

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