WHEN are Spot/Listen or Hide/Move Silent checks called for?

[RUMBLETiGER]

Plus, many times the GM doesn't want to tip off the players with dice throws or allow them to know how well they did. I mean saying, "Roll a Spot check," is a sure fire way to alert otherwise non-alert PCs that they should be on their guard and ask for several Spot and Listen checks.

I have my players randomly roll spots and listens, even when I don't have anything on hand. They know it's a mixed bag by now.

EDIT: And, what about multipe characters? Let's say your PC party of six is traveling down the wood, single file, and there is an encounter with a band of bandits, ten strong.

Who sees who? Who hears who? How is this supposed to be played in the game?

I give the entire set of bandits one Hide and Move Silently check. I call for the PC's to roll once to hear/see them, and let everyone roll separately. If only one PC sees them, and I have time, I jot something down on an index card and pass it along, leaving it up the to the player to decide what to share. If there is less time or it really doesn't matter, I say out loud what that one person saw and all the other players hear but pretend their PC's still don't know, but they usually get tipped of by the player who saw.

 

[Water Bob]

I have my players randomly roll spots and listens, even when I don't have anything on hand. They know it's a mixed bag by now.

I dislike doing that, but it is a time honored way of doing it.

Remember, though, I'm trying to figure out what is intended by the official rules--not what people do to deal with the ambiguity in the rules.

I give the entire set of bandits one Hide and Move Silently check. I call for the PC's to roll once to hear/see them, and let everyone roll separately.

That's heavily weighted in the PC's favor. All ten bandits get one chance to win. The six PCs each get an individual chance to win, meaning the PCs roll six times--and only one of those rolls needs to beat the single NPC throw.

 

[Water Bob]

I've got a 1st level adventure published by WotC, and inside are helpful advice sections explaining how to run the game. At the entrance to the cave featured in the adventure, a section discusses Stealth.

Guarding the cave are two goblins and their guard dog. The suggestion is to make the PCs roll Hide checks individually, every 30 feet.

Here are some observations on what is indicated in the advemture module.What I take from the adenture....

1. Use Spot/Hide most of the time. You don't really have to use Spot/Hide AND Listen/Move Silent. Pick one or the other to fit the scenario.

2. Inside a certain radius (around 100 feet or so), roll every combat round for stealth when a character is exposed. Note that ths favors the guards quite a a bit and makes it very hard to use Stealth successfully.

3. The -1 per 10' Disantance penalty is used on normal Spot checks (unlike how the description seems to indicate). And, this makes it very easy to close distance on a target without getting caught.

 

[Greenfield]

Yes and no.

If you roll a separate Hide/Move Silent for each bandit, each bandit has a chance to fail, and if one fails they've all failed, since the noisy/clumsy one will give the group away.

What I usually do is roll once for the ambush group, and apply the modifier of the worst one in the group. I'll frequently give them a circumstance bonus if they know the area well. They have, in theory, been at this for a while and already know the good hiding spots.

I'll roll once for the PCs, using the observation modifiers of the best of the PCs. If someone is scouting, I use their bonus straight, or the rest of the party's bonus at -5 for being distracted. You can't be on full alert 24 hours a day, after all.

Now in the panther encounter described, the PC type must be rolling nuclear numbers, since his Listen is only +2, yet he keeps rolling in the low 20s.

Per the odds, encounter distance should be zero and the Panther should get a Surprise round most of the time. It is, after all, what he does for a living.

In practice you typically hear an opponent first in an underground or thick underbrush situation. That alerts you to try and Spot, removing that -5 "distracted" modifier.

To the original question: When are dice rolls called for?

A Hide or Move Silent check is called for any time someone intentionally tries to hide or move silently.

A Spot or Listen check is called for as soon as the DM thinks that an encounter is possible. The book gives a guideline (mentioned earlier) but the DM has the final word. The roll is made once for the encounter, to reflect the general level of attentiveness. The result is compared to the Hide/Move Silent check, and you do a little math with the modifiers to see how close the pair get before one spots the other.

So really, two dice rolls per side (one for Hide and one for Move Silent on the ambusher's side, and one for Spot and one for Listen on the traveler's side. )

<EDIT>It occurs to me that if I was running an ambush, I'd post my people in an area where they have 100% concealment from the trail and have them lay still. Chance of being Spotted or Listened in on is zero. Now I'll have a scout in a good position to see the trail, but at a distance. When the PC's hit the ambush point, the spotter signals, the men under cover leap out and kabang! The party's Spot is penalized by the distance as well as the practiced skill of the scout, and the bandits aren't in any way penalized for having people who aren't any good at hiding. </EDIT>

 

[Water Bob]

After reading the general rules on skill use closely and the descriptions of Move Silently, Listen, Hide, and Spot specifically--then, checking out how these skills are used in beginning official adventures (where the GM is being taught the game with advice from the adventure author) and tangental use like the rules for tailing a character in Complete Adventurer, I'm thinking that the correct way to use the stealth use....what was intended...is to make a roll once per game round.

But, the 3.5 game isn't always played in six second combat rounds. If using the Local Scale, then checks are made each minute. If the party is traveling long distance, then they're probably using the One Day or One Hour scale, which means one check each day or per hour is appropriate.

Distance plays a part, too. As the encounter distance approaches, say, 100 feet or so, combat rounds should probably be used--which means sneaking up on someone after tailing takes a few checks. Three or more.

Plus, its easy to forget modifiers. For example, if using the One Hour scale, the PCs may not be watchful of someone tracking them. That's probably a distraction -5 penalty to their Spots. And, for the one trying to sneak up on them, he's got move penalties. Many times, he'll be spotted unless he's got a lot of bonus in concealment or flat out cover.

Although it doesn't say it anywhere, it seems logical, too, to default to Spot/Hide checks and not roll a Listen/Move Silent check. Use the Listen/Move Silent checks when vision is hampered (like at night when the PCs can't see too far past their camp fire....or in a dungeon setting where vision is blocked by structures).





EDIT: ADDRESSING THE EXAMPLE IN THE OP --

I think the way to handle that scenario, by the rules, is to run it something like this...



1. Initial Encounter.

Roll Panther's Spot vs. PC's Hide. If the PC's are just walking together through the woods, not taking a lot of precautions to be stealthy, then this means a penalty to their Hide. Use the Panther's Spot to determine the distance at which the Panther notices the PC's.

We know from the Envrionment Stealth toss mentioned in the OP that max sight range in this terrain is 100 feet. There's lots of trees and hills and rocks blocking line of sight.

The GM determines that the panther is sitting on a rock when the PCs come close.

Does the panther Spot the PC? d20 +6 Spot +0 PC Size = 12.

PC's Hide: d20 +5 Hide -5 Move Penalty -2 Panther's Advantage +0 Panther Size = 10.



Does the PC see the panther? d20 +6 Spot +0 Panther Size = 9.

Panther's Hide: d20 +8 Hide +2 panther's advantage +0 PC Size = 28.



This means that the panther spotted the PC just 20 feet away, and the PC hasn't seen the panther. At this close range, I'd consider using the Listen/Move Silent checks, too, but the panther isn't moving. There's nothing for the PC to hear.



2. This is where the encounter can be started, with the panther getting a surprise round (which, all he can do, is stand up from his seated position on the rock--that's an action), roll initiative, then play out the combat encounter.

Alternatively, the panther can choose to stalk the PC, but at this range, he's got to roll every combat round--which means the PC will see him if he takes too long. Listen/Move Silently checks could be used, too--but that's a lot for the GM to do, especially behind a screen, not letting the PC know that there's a panther just 20 feet away.

Most likely, on the surprise round, I'd have the panther stand up and growl. Roll nish. Combat rounds. That's the easiest.



3. It probably helps to pre-roll the PC's Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Hide passive checks. Use them until the player wants to re-roll one of them (he should not know his passive check--but, he can call for a re-throw). That will give the GM static numbers to roll against with the beastie.

 

[Loonook]

Numbers I have been playing with since reading the post:

Hider: d20 + (best modifier) - (worst armor class penalty) - 1 per individual. Aid Another removes penalty, applies +1.

Spotter: d20 + (lowest Spot) +2 per observer.

Going to run a couple hundred randoms matches and sums see how even it turns out for a typical encounters at various levels and get back to you in 24-48 hours.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

Numbers I have been playing with since reading the post:

Hider: d20 + (best modifier) - (worst armor class penalty) - 2 per individual. Allow Aid Another checks to remove the -2 penalty.

Spotter: d20 + (lowest Spot) +2 per observer.

Going to run a couple hundred randoms matches and sums see how even it turns out for a typical encounters at various levels and get back to you in 24-48 hours.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

This looks interesting. But, don't you have the "best" and "worst" modifier backwards? Shouldn't the worst Hider modifier be used against the e best Spotter mod?

Just one guy not doing his job can get you caught, and that one eagle-eyed dude in the group would do the catching.

 

[Loonook]

This looks interesting. But, don't you have the "best" and "worst" modifier backwards? Shouldn't the worst Hider modifier be used against the e best Spotter mod?

Just one guy not doing his job can get you caught, and that one eagle-eyed dude in the group would do the catching.

The Best Hider is offset by the Armor Class Penalty, allowing for the Thief to know where to set his specific party members to best effect... but the clanky of armor screws with your checks. Using the 'worst' spotter as the determining factor allows for a better effect as a single spotter relies on his sole check, while multiple 1st level watchmen usually will get a BETTER roll if they are together. Same goes for any watchmen really... But if you wish to mess around with the numbers...

Here's my basic presentation. I will be uploading the Excel sheet in short order.

Determining the Functionality of a Hide/Spot System as Outlined by my initial post:


Wanted to run the scenarios for a few levels, using the ‘loudest’ possible members of the party (sword and board full plate) using a 0(fail)/+1(pass) for the Hide Aid Anothers, and a -1/+1 AA check. These numbers do not take into account ranges for the various types, but I have supplied the sheet with a Range factored as a Spot Penalty (insert the current range in 10’ increments as a positive number in the spot marked Ranged @ W3 and you can factor it yourself. I just did the reads for a group of 1st level adventures with a 16 Dex on the Rogue (a point over Elite Array and fairly common, full ranks), and 6th level. You may do your own factoring for various Hide checks.
Factoring 0/+1:
+7 Check, -8 ACP, +0 Spot Check, Randomized Watchers (1-3), 10’ range.
269 0.373611111
277 0.384722222
289 0.401388889
282 0.391666667
300 0.416666667
270 0.375
291 0.404166667
39.24% pass rate with checks with 1978 Success/5040 Rolls.
+12 Check, -8 ACP, +0 Spot Check, Randomized Watchers, 10’ range.
426 0.591666667
427 0.593055556
444 0.616666667
450 0.625
432 0.6
430 0.597222222
422 0.586111111
60.14% pass rate with 3031 Success/ 5040 Rolls.
Factoring -1/+1:
+7 Check, -8 ACP, +0 Spot Check, Randomized Watchers (1-3), 10’ range.
213 0.295833333
237 0.329166667
233 0.323611111
249 0.345833333
251 0.348611111
226 0.313888889
253 0.351388889
32.98% pass rate with 1662 success /5040 rolls.
+12 Check, -8 ACP, +0 Spot Check, Randomized Watchers, 10’ range.
390 0.541666667
401 0.556944444
390 0.541666667
374 0.519444444
387 0.5375
393 0.545833333
379 0.526388889
53.85% pass rate with 2714 success/5040 rolls.

As you can see, over 10080 rolls to compare the two aid types, the difference between 0/1 and -1/1 seems to be around 7% in favor of the 0/1 approach when using completely randomized spotters. If the party is full of 'naked' Rogues against a Spotless group of guards at 6th level they have an 83 (-1/1) to 90 (0/1) percent chance of sneaking through the ranks.

I have provided 4 separate sheets on the listing… The first 2 demonstrate the -1/1 system, while the last demonstrate 0/1. I have provided you with the ability on the 2nd and 3rd sheet to even screw around with the number of extra Spotters to see what I'm discussing.

I feel that these allow for sufficient confirmations of rolls and how they will function across the spectrum. Give it a whirl, follow the directions listed here, do your own determination by observing the sums and using the variable entries to the far right across the top of the chart.

After breaking it down a bit took a hell of a lot LESS than 24 hours .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: I just updated the chart... Updated the chart so as to give options to put in individual party members and their modifiers under the Party Aid section AA1-AD1 are where you put your current Hide modifiers, and AA3-AD3 are binary slots. Put a 1 to determine a 'present' member, 0 for an 'absent'. This allows for you to actually see how 720 rolls will make the system work. I've tested it across and the system seems quite precise and not as 'swingy' as normal math, and actually allows an entire party to have a chance to sneak through an area together. The system seems pretty flexible from what I can observe, and actually works pretty well across the twelve creatures I have tried it out with, in various combinations. But play around with it for a test drive... I have given you a whole toolkit as a proof .