When Bob wants to play a female PC

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John Morrow said:
Does that mean that a man can't write a magazine article like a woman or a man can't act like those characters in those books? No. Does this mean that I can always tell or that I'm always right? Not at all. Does it mean that I can point my finger to one trait or set of traits that makes me intuitively sense the sex of an author? Not at all. But it does mean that the written or verbal output of someone can give clues to their sex.

So, in essence, you expect all characters to behave like average/normal/typical members of a group. Well, while that is simply silly and biggoted in the real world, it becomes truely assinine in a RPG world where PCs often represent outstanding and/or unusual individuals.

But you do hilight the problem. It's not with the player's portrayal, but with the attitude of the person making the judgement. And if there's a problem, it's the one causing the problem that needs to do the adapting.
 

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Rackhir said:
Oh, well. You'd think we could have a reasonable discussion about this at our ages (I'm pretty sure that most of EN world skews late 20's-30+), but it looks not. The homophobe acusation directed at you was particularly unfair. I hope you can work out why exactly it makes you uncomfortable, it just seems to be an unnecesarry restriction on your campaign.

I've said it once. I'll say it again. I only used the word 'homophobe' because I lacked a better word. Destan has already responded on this, and I think it's great that he's not actually homophobic. So, let's put that to rest right now.

But if anyone has a word to describe someone who is uncomfortable around drag queens, or transvestites, then I'll gladly go back and edit my post to use that word instead. It does seem appropriate here, since that's what is at the heart, IMHO, of this issue - guys appearing to be women. No, it has nothing to do with being gay. I just need a new word, that's all.
 

die_kluge said:
I've said it once. I'll say it again. I only used the word 'homophobe' because I lacked a better word. Destan has already responded on this, and I think it's great that he's not actually homophobic. So, let's put that to rest right now.

But if anyone has a word to describe someone who is uncomfortable around drag queens, or transvestites, then I'll gladly go back and edit my post to use that word instead. It does seem appropriate here, since that's what is at the heart, IMHO, of this issue - guys appearing to be women. No, it has nothing to do with being gay. I just need a new word, that's all.

Perhaps it makes them feel queer....

:lol:
 

PapersAndPaychecks said:
Actually, I'm not so sure about that. I've noted that if the character is male, then the player is usually happy to play one with low charisma, a poor appearance stat, or whatever - and this applies whether the player is male or female. I've also observed that if the character is female, then there is a tendency for players to want that character to have a reasonably good charisma/appearance stat - and again, this applies whether the player is male or female.

I think it's a simple matter of what society prefers. Stop for a moment and count how many ugly newscasters there are in your hometown. Now count how many ugly female newscasters there are. I don't know about your hometown, but I've seen some butt-ugly male newscasters in my day. Society prefers an attractive female. I won't go into the Darwinian reasons why that is.
 

die_kluge said:
But if anyone has a word to describe someone who is uncomfortable around drag queens, or transvestites, then I'll gladly go back and edit my post to use that word instead.
Franknfurterphobia. :lol:

The problem, it seems to me, with this discussion, is that once again there are TWO CORRECT ANSWERS depending on which direction the situation is coming from:

1. If the reason it is undesirable for a player to play across gender is a fair certainty that they will play it immaturely, then it makes sense to deny them the right to do so. And since that's only fair if it is a rule for everyone in the game, I can see it quite correctly becoming a rule that way.
2. If the reason it is undesirable for a player to play across gender is some sort of fear or immature bigotry against gay people, transexuals, or transvestites or some sort of belief that a man CAN'T play a woman (or vice-versa), then I suggest the DM go watch "The Crying Game", and then grow up.

Personally, I know I can play female characters well and with respect, and if a DM told me that I, specifically, couldn't play one, I would either find a new DM to play with, or (if I were feeling ornery) just go ahead and play a "passing man" without mentioning it to anyone else until something in the actual game (like my character getting strip searched, or something) made it relevant.
 

Is this "Bob" a real person? Maybe he posted in this thread, and I missed it. Can we get him to post in this thread? I admit I skipped a couple of early pages, so maybe he posted and I didn't read it.

I'd be curious to see his take on this.
 

die_kluge said:
Is this "Bob" a real person? Maybe he posted in this thread, and I missed it. Can we get him to post in this thread? I admit I skipped a couple of early pages, so maybe he posted and I didn't read it.

I'd be curious to see his take on this.

Yes he is a real person. Yes he posted in this thread. Yes you missed it. :cool:
 

die_kluge said:
But if anyone has a word to describe someone who is uncomfortable around drag queens, or transvestites, then I'll gladly go back and edit my post to use that word instead. It does seem appropriate here, since that's what is at the heart, IMHO, of this issue - guys appearing to be women. No, it has nothing to do with being gay. I just need a new word, that's all.

I'll throw a fly in the ointment when it comes to categorizing my views: I have zero issues with drag queens or transvestites. Granted, I haven't drank beer with too many of them. I did spend a couple days in Thailand with a few...but I saw much, much stranger things during that eye-opening port visit.

So...I'm less comfortable with guys playing females in roleplaying games than I am with guys playing females in real life.

Do I understand it? Nope. Don't even pretend to.

I guess the bottom line is I feel it detracts from my gaming experience and, the best I can tell, the gaming experiences of those other players in my campaign. My players are also my friends. We're a Beer & Pretzels type group. Lots of beer, lots of pretzels. We love combat and rolling dice. Do I think our 'roleplaying' is any less refined than some of the other groups out there? I don't think so. I don't know. I've certainly seen plenty of other groups play, at cons or as a brief NPC stand-in, and I didn't see anything that made me think our style of gaming was any less enjoyable, or interesting, or profound.

I think someone else said it best in this very thread. The DM sets the tone of his campaign, right at the outset. He should be up front and open with the things he'll permit (alignments, races, whatever). If the players have a problem, they discuss and compromise and work it out. Like adults. If a solution can't be found, then either: a) the player finds another group, or b) the DM finds himself with no players and realizes he'd better change his ways if he wants to roll dice. I think this is fair to all parties.

Not that I'd expect die_kluge to want to be in my campaign, but if he came to me as a prospective player (just as Bob did), and if he asked to play a female PC (just as Bob did), I'd ask him to reconsider (just as I did). If asked for my motives (a fair question), I'd simply say I'd prefer him to play a male character, as I'm comfortable with that convention and feel I can GM sessions better when I'm comfortable. If that wasn't good enough for die_kluge, then he could find somewhere else to game, or he could explain to me why it's important to him to play a female character.

We'll never know if I would have relented with Bob, because Bob didn't press the issue.

Please remember throughout all this I never handed down an ultimatum that said "Thou shalt play thine gender." I simply let Bob know, as his DM and as his friend, that I would prefer if he played a male character. If his concept worked fine irrespective of his character's sex, then I fail to see a huge problem in this arrangement. Indeed, it was dropped, and only came up again because...well, because I posted something here. That was many, many emails ago.

I am much wiser now.

And, oddly enough, I'm now gay.

Fat D
 
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apesamongus said:
So, in essence, you expect all characters to behave like average/normal/typical members of a group.

Are you trying to understand what I'm saying or trying to twist what I'm saying to fit your preconceived notions? That's not what I'm saying.

A person who is not "abnormal" is not necessarily average or typical.

apesamongus said:
Well, while that is simply silly and biggoted in the real world, it becomes truely assinine in a RPG world where PCs often represent outstanding and/or unusual individuals.

It's a natural part of life. We notice things that don't fit in. It's a big part of what the human brain does. It's also why the children's television show "Sesame Street" has a segment where "One of these things is not like the other..." and they expect children to figure out which one that is.

apesamongus said:
But you do hilight the problem. It's not with the player's portrayal, but with the attitude of the person making the judgement. And if there's a problem, it's the one causing the problem that needs to do the adapting.

The problem can be either with the portrayal or the person making the judgement. Remember, I'm the one who has said, repeatedly now, that there is not only one problem here. And I'm sorry but I don't buy into the idea that a person who doesn't like something that someone else does is obliged to learn how to like it. As I also said earlier, role-playing is a group activity and a recreational one at that. I have no obligation to "adapt" to anyone or anything that I don't enjoy any more than I have to eat my brocolli because it's good for me.
 


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