When Bob wants to play a female PC

[Mallus]

So each group has to find their own balance between letting the players do what they want and everyone having a good time.

That's just so damn... reasonable it really should be the last word in this debate.

OK, maybe next-to-last. I really think accomodation should be a guiding principle --if not the guiding principle-- when running an RPG campaign.

Tactics-lovers should just grin and bear it when a PC proposes to an NPC. Then offer a consoling word when they later divorce...

Story-lovers should get with the program and at least learn how to flank...

Simulationists should check their urge to lecture --or vomit-- when, in a major city, the party encounters a Starbucks run by orcs.

Literary-recreationists should do the same when that major city is Minas Tirinth...

So accomodation all around, unless it really kills your buzz.

 

[Thotas]

I'm going back to square one here to address the original poster's question to start with. And that question was, to paraphrase, "Am I the weird one?"

Well, I think it turns out you're the minority, and if that's your definition of "weird", then you are. But I think you're asking if you're in the wrong, and from my point of view, there's not enough info supplied to say. Whether or not it's "weird" to want to play cross-gendered PCs or to want to ban them depends on why you want it that way. And if I'm not mistaken, you still don't know why you feel the way you do.

I do play cross-gendered PCs. I can tell you why I do it, to. I concieve my character concepts the same way I would concieve them if I were writing a novel or a video script. As such, they come out all kinds of ways, including male and female. If I've concieved the character one way and I like it, and it turns out to be innappropriate to the game at hand,I would rather save the idea for another game and make a new one for the current game. If that means honoring the DMs request that I play male characters only, then my femmes can see action elsewhere, no biggie. Even if it's just the pronoun issue, I've seen it come up and can understand that some people are really annoyed by it. I've seen some things described on this thread, though, that I can say I'm glad I've never seen. I can understand the "risk management" arguement that some have put forward as a very valid reason for the ruling based on what's been hinted at Teflon Billy having to endure. So TB would ban half of my characters ... and it doesn't make either of us weird. He doesn't want to be reminded of some people who were weird, and who would have weirded me out, too. Fully understandble. I have the same hang-up with what I call "freak show D&D"; the party is made of a drow, a minotaur, a half-dragon (gold), a dwarf with the infernal template, and an awakened carrion crawler -- or some other hodge-podge of races anyone of which would be unusual and make no sense together. It could be done well, but I've seen some bad ones and heard stories of worse, and I just don't want to have to deal with it.

But I digress.

So yeah, the group should decide what works for 'em and what doesn't. Then do things that way. I know, every issue in the game always seems to come down to that. In this case, though, the original poster seems still not sure about his decision because he's not sure where it comes from. So I think the way we can all be constructive is to explain the origins of our decisions, not bicker and name call each other over them.

Again, I create characters like I would for any fiction, and to say that a male can't create a convincing female character or vice versa seems like saying that characters in novels and movies should be limited to one sex only. That's kind of limiting, I think. [Edit: and so does Gez, apparently, who posted a similar remark while I was typing this up.] If you say that it only applies to the main POV characters, you're still trying to take away my Honor Harrington books. The arguement about cognitive dissonance over visuals I can see, but I also think that in many cases, it can be overcome with visual aids -- if one of your group can draw, or you can find artwork that fits your image of your character, you can say "This is what Vilasonee looks like, even though I look nothing like it, think of this when "she" speaks." And that never hurts in a game where you do have some physical resemblance to your character, for that matter.

 

[Destan]

I try to put this aside and move on with equally profound issues (like coaching tee ball), but it keeps pulling me back. I don't like to ignore questions, and I feel I've ignored some that were put to me. Let's see if I can knock them off one by one.

1) Would I prefer a female gamer to play a female character? Yes, I suppose I would.

2) Did you make your decision based upon the campaign maturity level? I don't think the grittiness or what-not of my setting has any influence as to why I'd prefer folks to play a character of their same sex. Let's drop that whole aside, please - I'd rather not try to defend - or even explain - my campaign themes. My players seem to like it, so it's all Kool and the Gang. I really see these things as seperate issues.

3) Do you DM female NPCs? Yes, I do. Probably...oh, 30% of the 'named' NPCs are female.

4) But you won't let your players play a female PC? Is that arrogant or, at the very least, counter-intuitive? Um...my female NPCs enter the game, do whatever, then disappear (or, most often, are killed and looted). Same with my male NPCs. It's a revolving door. In my opinion, there's a difference. Again - just in my opinion.

5) Are you a homophobe? No. But you can't win that battle. Once someone throws down a label like that, you're done. It's character assassination at its finest. 'I'm not a racist' can lead to replies of 'Aha! You said you're not a racist, so you must be a racist!' Whatever, fellas, I really don't have the time or inclination to go into it. If it makes some of you feel any better, my college roommate of 4 years is and was as gay as they come. He remains one of my best friends. And no, he doesn't game. 'Aha! You just supported the label we affixed to you! Why do you feel the need to defend yourself if you didn't feel you have something to defend?!?' Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

6) Would you allow a male player to play a female character if he really wanted to? Depends on the player but - more importantly, in my mind - it depends on the other players. If allowing Joe to play a female character makes Joe happy but lessens the enjoyment for Tom, Bob, and Fred, then I'd probably stick to my guns and ask Joe not to play a female character. I'm not trying to shift the onus onto my other players' likes and dislikes, mind you. I, personally, would be more comfortable with Joe playing a male character.

7) Explain why you asked that guy to switch to a male character. I think Wulf probably said what I felt, and in a much better manner. I just have difficulty "imagining" Bob as a female elf. I can see him as a gnome, a half-ogre (not too far off the mark), or whatever. But the whole "see him as a member of the opposite sex" thing is difficult for me. Perhaps my imagination is handicapped or not at the level of some of the posters on this thread. (And I mean that seriously, with no sarcasm.) It's just the way I feel.

Thanks,
D

 

[apesamongus]

Allow me to speak out of my ass then

In different setting s the role and personality of any creatures can be defined in a specific way so narrowly that they can be played incorrectly. You are looking at this from the scoop of modern times which does not work in most games that are based off of mideval societies and roles, though poorly.

I thought this was a D&D forum. My genitals resemble mideval society more than D&D does.

Characters in games should look/behave like characters in the appropriate genre being represented by the game - and that is almost NEVER real mideval society. And to be frank, 99%+ of gamers wouldn't know an accurate representation of ANY historic society if it walked up and bit them on the ass. So, the argument you're trying to make here is completely empty.

Playing a character wrong is more then just getting the traitrs and personality wrong. It is also about playing the character in a way that disrupts the rest of the group.

Which has exactly jack and to do with the character's/player's gender.

 

[Particle_Man]

I do not believe Destan ever said that rape was a part of his game. One of his players said that they ran an "R" rated game. I got the impression that he used rape as an extreme example for shock value rather than it ever having appeared in game.

Here is what his player, Bill=Bob, said: "A 'female' character does, within our campaign pose certain issues, we play a "R" campaign. (I say an "R" not out of sexually explicit or anything like that, but in the grittiness of it.) The evil guys are not above kidnapping and raping to punish various people.
I would like to thank Destan for believing I could pull it off successfully, I think it most of the "hang up" is that he didn't feel comfortable being put in the position of having to play his Evil Guys doing that to a PC"

Destan later said that there is no "on camera rape" but this leaves open the possibility of "off camera rape". If "off camera rape" is not a part of the game, then the player (Bill=Bob) was incorrect in his post. Destan can clear that matter up, and I await his clarification. If there is off camera rape, I am curious as to whether there is any off camera male-on-male rape (which, one would presume, would be an issue for male characters in the way that female victim off-camera rape would be an issue for female characters), or if the off camera rape is exclusively with female victims.

But in any case, whatever the degree of grittiness of Destan's campaign (and perhaps there is no off camera rape, or so little of such that it is not a part of the players' game), the question remains: Would he, ever, allow a female player in his (rated "R") game? If he did, would he have any problems with that female player playing a female character in his (rated "R") game? Which would make him more uncomfortabole, that female player playing a female character or that female player playing a male character, in his (rated "R") game?

I will add another question: If Destan were running a modern 4-colour supers G-rated game, would he have the same problems with Bill=Bob playing a female character?

This might help clarify why Destan has some problems with Bill=Bob, a male player, playing a female character in his R-rated game.

A final question: If Destan allowed a female player to his game, who played a female character, and then two years later Destan found out that the female player was actually a cunningly disguised male transvestite, how would this affect Destan allowing the transvestite to play the female character? This one might be too hypothetical for Destan to know how he would react.

 

[Oryan77]

Playing D&D and liking it is embarassing enough. I'm not about to tell my coworkers that my favorite PC that I play each week is a barbarian woman....yeah that's sure to pull in new players to our hobby. The general public laughs at the fact that we pretend to be fighters and wizards. I hope it doesn't make the news that now in the new decade, those loony Dungeon & Dragon players insist on playing women each week.

I think 7 pages of guys belittling us because we're not cool with men pretending to be women has finally converted me. Since all of you guys are so open minded and creatively unrestrictive, I'll see you all at the next convention....look for me, the guy wearing the hot sexy bikini chainmail armor. If my favorite PC turns out to be my new female fighter, I'll surely want to dress up like her for the con! Now the question is, should I wear a one piece or a two piece outfit?

I still laugh at the idea of imagining 4 grown men sitting at the table on a friday night, pretending to be women. I'm sure that turns your wives/girlfriends on And if yer single, imagine the chicks you can pull in since you can "relate" to their feminine side so well.

This thread cracks me up, never in my life did I think this topic was so controversial. I honestly never thought having a problem with it was a big deal.

EDIT*

if the male player showed up for the game session wearing a chainmail bikini he made in his spare time...so that he could be more 'in character'.

Heh funny, we basically made the same comment, I'm just a little slower at posting while at work

 

[tonym]

I ran a female PC once, because I wanted to try (for the first time) running a friendly, kind, diplomacy-oriented character, and I KNEW I couldn't pull it off running a male. I know how I am: my PCs are always violent and quick-tempered and do not take crap from nobody. Heck, even the paladins will murder you if you rub them the wrong way.

So I figured if I rolled-up a female PC, I would do a better job of roleplaying a diplomatic character. Her gender would keep me focused.

As it turned-out, I was right! I did a good job running her. Moreover, there was NO weirdness at the table (apart from the weirdness of me running a character who was always rational).

So, in conclusion....thank you, Dungeon Master, for letting me run a female PC that time. It was boring as hell not killing everybody, but it allowed me to expand a bit as a roleplayer, which was swell.


Tony

 

[Rackhir]

I try to put this aside and move on with equally profound issues (like coaching tee ball), but it keeps pulling me back. I don't like to ignore questions, and I feel I've ignored some that were put to me. Let's see if I can knock them off one by one.

Oh, well. You'd think we could have a reasonable discussion about this at our ages (I'm pretty sure that most of EN world skews late 20's-30+), but it looks not. The homophobe acusation directed at you was particularly unfair. I hope you can work out why exactly it makes you uncomfortable, it just seems to be an unnecesarry restriction on your campaign.

 

[Particle_Man]

I posted and then saw that Destan had answered most of my questions. So his theory is that "visual dissonance" makes it hard for him to see Bob as a female character.

So the only question left is that of the male transvestite that is so good at real life disguise that Destan was fooled for two years. Thus we have a female character that did not cause visual dissonance before. If Destan now realized that the player across the table was male, but still looked female, would there be cognitive dissonance, or would Destan be ok with a female character in this case because there would be less "Visual" dissonance. Would Destan prefer that the now-revealed transvestite play a male or female character? Which would cause less dissonance for Destan? Note that my example stipulates a transvestite that fooled Destan for two years, and hence was able to fool people into thinking he was a she (as a player). Not all transvestites could pull this off, but some could.

 

[Destan]

Destan later said that there is no "on camera rape" but this leaves open the possibility of "off camera rape". If "off camera rape" is not a part of the game, then the player (Bill=Bob) was incorrect in his post. Destan can clear that matter up, and I await his clarification.

I'm not sure why it matters? But, ah, I'm not sure we both can't be correct. I'm pretty certain Bob's post said that he believes my villains would not be above doing nasty things to good people. I have a (comatose) story hour that, incidentally, caused some problems when I portrayed things some people were uncomfortable with. Bob has read that story hour, and Bob probably bases some of his thoughts as to my campaign based on what he's seen in that tale.

Bob the player has no idea what types of nasty things my villains have done off-camera - he just feels confident that they have.

Have we, as a group, had any scenarios around such issues? No.

Do I plan to? No.

Do I think that has any bearing whatsoever on the sex of my players' characters? No.

Would [you], ever, allow a female player in [your] (rated "R") game?

Of course.

If [you] did, would [you] have any problems with that female player playing a female character in his (rated "R") game?

No. In fact, as I mentioned, I'd prefer it.

Which would make [you] more uncomfortable, that female player playing a female character or that female player playing a male character, in his (rated "R") game?

See above.

If [you] were running a modern 4-colour supers G-rated game, would he have the same problems with Bill=Bob playing a female character?

I dunno. I've never played or GM'd a supers game or really anything outside of "traditional" D&D. I'm guessing I'd probably still prefer Bob to play a male super hero. Though, if the game were more casual and comedic, it probably wouldn't faze me as much.

A final question: If [you] allowed a female player to [your] game, who played a female character, and then two years later [you] found out that the female player was actually a cunningly disguised male transvestite, how would this affect [you] allowing the transvestite to play the female character?

Particle Man, please re-read your question. C'mon. I mean - I have to thank you, because it's given me my first chuckle regarding this thread since I claimed my players had to wear muscle shirts at the gaming tables (and some of you believed me).

I'm not trying to be condescending (there's too much of that in this thread as it is), so, my answer: I'd probably feel more comfortable with the 'cunningly disguised' transvestite playing a female character.