When can a Dire Lion use Rake?

[noeuphoria]

I think it's intended like this: if the dire lion makes an attack(not a charge) and bites, it can then establish a grapple. Normally, since it already attacked that round, and monsters don't get iterative attacks for natural weapons, that would be it. Lion bites, grapples, done. In this case, the lion can bite, grapple, and then if it gets hold, get it's 2 rakes what it pretty much translates to is the damn lion will probably be raking you every round. It rakes when it charges, rakes when it establishes a grapple(if it hasn't raked already that round) and rakes when it starts the round grappled.

 

[Scion]

While I can certainly see a dm ruling that the guy cannot get 2 sets of rake attacks in a single round the rules are pretty clear.

When pouncing they can rake. When they get ahold with their bite and grapple they can rake. Nothing about not being able to rake from the first and the second condition. They are seperate conditions after all.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Scion, your point of view would be a lot more convincing if you could find a SINGLE example of a creature with rake that did list the "no rake from grapple unless you start the round grappling" rule. A general rule that lacks any instances at all wouldn't be much of a general rule.

Come to think of it, your contention would also be a lot more convincing if it didn't depend on your exception amounting to "well, it doesn't say you can't rake in the round you grapple in the specific example, therefore it is an explicit exception to the general rake rule."

When the explicit exception is actually a sentence that is omitted and it's present in nearly every single monster with both Rake and Improved Grab, you know your case is shakier than Dan Rather's document assessment team.

 

[Kershek]

The bold section is important.

A dire lion charges.
Because of the pounce ability, it can make a full attack including two rakes. So, claw, claw, bite, rake, rake.
If the bite hits, improved grab kicks in.
Improved Grab allows it to start a grapple as a free action and pull its opponent into its square. (As long as the opponent is a smaller size category than the lion).
If it succeeds at the grapple check, it is grappling. Rake would ordinarily kick in--except for two things: 1. The dire lion has already made two rake attacks in this round. 2. Since it didn't begin the round grappling, the bolded portion of the rake description means it cannot make the rake attacks for being in a grapple. (The ones it already made are a function of pounce rather than grappling).

On the next round, the dire lion can make a full attack starting with two rake attacks (it started its round grappling) and then may either make a grapple check to deal bite damage (or to pin) or, if its foe is unconscious or dead because of the rakes, may continue its full attack on anyone who happens to be next to it.

The point at which the lion grapples will affect the rest of its attacks. If it bites first and succeeds with improved grab, then it is grappling and the rest of its attacks are at -4 to hit (as per grappling rules with natural weapons).

A couple questions on this:

Can you do the attacks out of order so you save your bite for last and not get penalized on the above?

Do each of the natural attacks count as a possible grapple attempt, or do you still use BAB?

 

[Scion]

Scion, your point of view would be a lot more convincing if you could find a SINGLE example of a creature with rake that did list the "no rake from grapple unless you start the round grappling" rule. A general rule that lacks any instances at all wouldn't be much of a general rule.

This is a specific rule overriding the general, not a general rule that is different here and there at whim. One does not have to prove the negative to have the positive in action. Since the positive is already right there in black and white, with another example of where it is not in evidence, it is pretty much cut and dry.

The lion 'specifically states', which the hag does not, that when it gets its bite on it gets to rake.

It doesnt say if you havent already raked, it doesnt say if you started the round grappling (this part is covered in the rake rules), it doesnt need to say all of that.

All it needs to do is state the exceptions from the general rule.

Which it does. Right there in black and white.

You may ignore or dismiss it however you like of course.

SRD:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Note, that for at least some creatures constrict works similarly with improved grab. It must just be a feature for some creatures improved grab, but not everyone is included (hence there being a difference that is specifically listed on some).

SRD:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a salamander must hit a creature of up to one size larger than itself with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

 

[Dracuwulf]

I would tend to agree with Scion for the simple fact that if you compare the Dire Lion to other CR 5 creatures like the Bearded Devil or the Earth Elemental, it seems to be pretty weak. The concept of the lion seems to be to hit fast and hard, so what Scion says would fit that concept...