When Do You Actually Roll Initiative & Clumping?

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

It sounds silly, but even though I've been playing dnd for over 25 years, I still cant figure out when to roll initiative. I've combed the books and couldn't find it, so I thought I'd ask in this forum.

For example; a party comes upon a room with monsters inside; is initiative rolled when the get to the door, when someone opens the door, if one person enters the room, if everyone enters the room, etc?

I've tried all the different combos (including readying the monster's actions), and each one seems to lead to problems; especially, the problem of clumping at the door; now I could easily avoid this by designing my own scenarios, but, not all scenarios are my design (of course).

I know this may be a dumb question, but I have been perplexed by this question for a long time, and I thought I'd ask.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You roll initiative "when the encounter starts." This is when one member of one side (at a minimum) is aware of the other and that knowledge on the other side is imminent. For example, don't roll initiative if you plan to simply sneak past a guard. Roll it once the guard is aware of your presence or if are you about to attack (at which point you get a Surprise round and not like 3-4 rounds of one-sided actions).

Prevent clumping is a completely different topic, quite honestly. It's also discussed in the DMGII, btw, should you have that book and not have read it thoroughly. A couple of the points on this issue:

* The initiative order may help with clumping. Hopefully, one or more PCs will act first and be able to enter the room.

* The monsters need not all rush the door. They might desire to "hang back" to enjoy a superior tactical position.

* Terrain features can alleviate clumping problems. There are many special such features given in both the DMG and DMGII that would strongly encourage PCs to enter the room.

* Dungeon layout can also help. If there are 2+ entrances/exits, then clumping is a Bad Thing ™ for the players and they are about to learn a lesson in military flanking maneuvers.

* Monster artillery can definitely make clumping a Bad Thing ™.

* Holding the PCs to the cover/concealment rules can keep them from remaining in the hallway. Is the ranger trying to cut the corner and "forgetting" the cover bonus? Can the PC's even target around the corner? Keep an eye on the Target entries of the powers.

* Shut the door after the defender enters, and keep it shut.

 

[Mengu]

For example; a party comes upon a room with monsters inside; is initiative rolled when the get to the door, when someone opens the door, if one person enters the room, if everyone enters the room, etc?

When someone opens the door, I ask for initiative.

Readied actions are meaningless, because everyone is ready for something to happen when you open the door. It's a question of who goes first, and that question is answered by initiative.

In an encounter where you think the door might get congested, and you don't want that to happen when the monsters have initiative, you can just hold (or ready) their actions until someone enters the room.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

This is the op. Thanks. Someone mentioned (above) a section in the DMG 2 dealing with my questions, and, yes, I read it, but it seemed really short, I'll read it again.

Upon further reflection, I guess my problem mostly arises when the monsters have high initiative; and I do have the monster's delay, but it seems to spoil their initiative counts, and, as a result, their overall value as opponents, and sometimes I have a hard time justifying (tactically) the monsters just sitting back, waiting to see what the PC's are going to do first; it seems like blocking and congesting the doorway would sometimes be a viable tactic on the monster's part, but like I said, the congestion causes headaches, so I guess I should concern myself more with running efficient encounters and not be so concerned about the monsters' well being.

What I'm going to try to do is emphasize all the suggestions above, given that although I've tried these things, i suppose should try to utilize them more.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One thing to remember is that while clumping can be good, it can also be bad...for both sides. For example, enemy artillery and controllers will have limited effectiveness if there's a bit clump at the door because the door itself, as well as the PC's in the doorway, provide cover/concealment against the ranged and area attacks that they'll be using. This can be the "reason" why the monsters hang back a bit and let the PC's enter the room.

Additionally, how create the enemy groups can make a big difference. Are there four Soldiers and a Controller? If so, that will lead to a lot of clumping when the Soldiers lock down the PC's whole front line. Instead, a couple Soldiers and two Artillery units might make for an easy looking encounter that will lure the PC's in, only to be caught with their pants down by a couple of Lurkers that pounce on them once they get into the room. This type of encounter will not only lure them into the room, it will create a lot of tension since the PC's were expecting an easy encounter, only to suddenly have it turn much more dangerous.

 

[jhilahd]

I avoid clumping if possible. I usually write up encounter cards for the different groups. so I can lay them out in front of me and keep track of their abilities/when they go in combat.

If you feel a monster has a high initiative bonus, adjust to what you want. Unless you roll your initiatives out in the open, you party doesn't need to know when the monsters go unless you want them to.

When do you roll initiative? When ever YOU (DM) decides it warrants an encounter/battle/fight. If the party is entering a room full of orcs gambling, and the orcs are so engrossed in their game, the party could get the drop on them. They'll have surprise round, once it's over roll initiative.
Let's say that same scenario, the party bursts into the room, and the orcs while playing are not surprised. Roll initiative.

You have to remember that it's whenever you decide you want a fight to occur. Or in the odd once in awhile occurrence, the party starts a fight.

You can look at the high initiatives as that creatures/character has a high awareness of the world around them. They read body language really well, or just have an intuition about things and react fast.
Only adjust those things if they are what is literally killing your party.

Holding actions, while I haven't done this for monsters, you could do.
Most of the time, think of combat as best you can from the monsters perspective.

****
I wrote a ton more, but felt like I was just thumping my desk preaching at you.

Page 267 of the PHB talks about the combat sequence, initiative is there when a combat encounter starts. When does that happen?

From page 265 of the PHB:

Whether it's a skirmish against a handful of orcs or an all-out battle with Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, combat is a staple of a DUNGEONS &
DRAGONS adventure.

Combat encounters usually begin when you enter an area containing monsters. Sometimes the monsters enter your area instead—when werewolves attack your camp at night, for example—or you and the monsters stumble upon each other. You might meet on a road, or
you might be exploring a dungeon when you run into a
hostile patrol.

No matter what you decide, have fun.

 

[Piratecat]

Upon further reflection, I guess my problem mostly arises when the monsters have high initiative; and I do have the monster's delay, but it seems to spoil their initiative counts, and, as a result, their overall value as opponents, and sometimes I have a hard time justifying (tactically) the monsters just sitting back, waiting to see what the PC's are going to do first; it seems like blocking and congesting the doorway would sometimes be a viable tactic on the monster's part, but like I said, the congestion causes headaches, so I guess I should concern myself more with running efficient encounters and not be so concerned about the monsters' well being.

Every once in a while you may want to give monsters the ability to pull a target. This means that when the door is opened and the monsters go first, one of them yanks a PC forward into the room (via harpoon, magic, or whatever) and then that PC gets swarmed. This is a bad tactic to use often, but might make for a fun surprise now and again.

 

[sfedi]

Initiative is the answer of:

A and B can now go, because both can act, are aware of the situation and wants to go before the other. Who goes first?

The usual order of things is:

Group A is unaware of group B
Group B is unaware of group A

then

Group A is aware of group B
Group B is unaware of group A

then

Group A is aware of group B
Group B is aware of group A

then, usually

Group A wants to act before group B
Group B wants to act before group A

At this point, roll initiative.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I rarely roll for clumping.

 

[msherman]

I rarely roll for clumping.

I roll for clumping whenever I'm running a random encounter in a forested area. Throw all my dice onto the battlemat -- that's where the clumps of trees are.