When Do You (GM) Kill PCs?

[ruleslawyer]

In that case, non-story related encounters are done to further suspension of disbelief. But if PCs cannot die during these encounters, why have them at all? That's pretty much the same as handwaving it.

If you enjoy these encounters for their own sake, doesn't death have to be present? Otherwise, where's the challenge?

Um, guys, where's the "announcing that no PCs will be killed" coming in here?

In any case, this is drawing an unnecessarily dualist (and, IMHO, simplistic) picture of the circumstances. The issue is not a divide between "encounter in which the PCs can die" and "encounter in which the PCs cannot die." There is a vast continuum of penalties and possible outcomes. As shilsen pointed out, there are many game-related consequences other than PC death. Taking damage and using expendable spells and items are two additional ones that he didn't list. Encounters are supposed to be a drain on resources; that's how the CR system is designed, after all. My point was merely that if the circumstances AND quirky dice-rolling result in a situation that is simply are too outrageous, IMO, to result in PC death (and this includes the context of failing to further the story), then I'm going to fudge to avoid it. Period. If your point is that EVERY combat encounter should be "dramatic" (in the sense that there is a real chance of causing PC death absent a crazy fluke of the device) and that any combat encounter that doesn't qualify should be handwaved IN ADVANCE, that's a difference in DM-ing style. I would find stopping the game and telling my players "Okay, I think it'd probably be pretty silly if I happened to roll exceedingly well here and actually kill one of you now, so we're just going to assume that you win this combat" pretty contrived. I generally run a good number of combats that simply don't have this kind of edge.

My main point, in any case, is that there are times (rare ones) when it is appropriate to fudge in order to avoid killing PCs, especially if you do not find the corrective mechanic of easily-available resurrection spells to your taste (I do not).

 

[LostSoul]

In any case, this is drawing an unnecessarily dualist (and, IMHO, simplistic) picture of the circumstances. The issue is not a divide between "encounter in which the PCs can die" and "encounter in which the PCs cannot die."

I concede the point. I've been using some bad logic on my part (straw man? "Only combats that matter are ones in which you can die") and ignoring the other range of possibilities. You can have encounters that are set up to heighten the dramatic impact of later ones, be that through suspension of disbelief or the slog through the mooks that wears you down in order to get to the big bad guy. Both encounters can offer penalties for failure that don't include death (although in terms of suspension of disbelief, I think death should be one - stylistic preference). For example, the "army of mooks" can wear down spells and HP.

The question is, when do the players feel like these encounters are "meaningless" if they don't offer that chance of death? That can only be answered by your group, since it varies from person to person.

For my part, I think that death is an important consequence of "failure" (from poor tactics and bad luck) in D&D.

 

[KRT]

That makes sense. As long as there are penalties for failure. Death is just usually the big one (although I'd rather die as a high-level fighter than have all my equipment stripped).

I have the complete opposite feeling here. I would rather lose all my equipment than even receive a crippling wound, let alone die. My equipment does not define my character in fact I prefer to have challenges that allow me to explore other dimensions of my character like the barfight without any standard weapons available, or the shipwreck style adventures. Don't get me wrong, I do find it a drag to lose all your equipment and would fight tooth and nail to avoid it, but its the first thing to go when my character is trying to save his ass.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

When we play its not to tell a story, its to play a game. If a PC dies, well then that is part of the "story" that would pop into being later when describing what happened. We roll in the open and take what the dice give just like any game.

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

I voted "let the dice fall where they may," because that's how I DM my normal week to week game. The campaign is lethal, the fights are lethal, so it'd be silly to fudge. There has to be some threat of death, after all. Last session that resulted in three characters going unconcious and one getting killed.

That being said, there are times where I have fudged. Mainly during game days where a combat just turns sour and if someone dies they have nothing to do for the next three hours. Even then, I'm much less likely to fudge if the game has been playtested beforehand.

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[LostSoul]

Don't get me wrong, I do find it a drag to lose all your equipment and would fight tooth and nail to avoid it, but its the first thing to go when my character is trying to save his ass.

The first thing to go when you're trying to save your ass is your pinky finger. To the cleric that can cast Ressurection.

Losing all of your equipment is generally a bigger blow than simply dying if you're a high-level fighter.

 

[KRT]

The first thing to go when you're trying to save your ass is your pinky finger. To the cleric that can cast Ressurection.

Losing all of your equipment is generally a bigger blow than simply dying if you're a high-level fighter.

Only if its a true ressurection. Experience points are usually harder to come by. Plus I don't mini-max my characters so having the ideal set of magic equipment is much less essential for me. In a heavy hack/slash campaign then maybe, but I don't play or DM that kind of game. DMs tend to ramp up the creatures to keep up with the power of the party so we tend to underpower ourselves on purpose, its gives us room to grow (quickly if need be).

 

[the Jester]

For those advocating maiming, what about regenerate?

Dude, without maiming, what good is regenerate anyway??

 

[Altalazar]

I'll generally let the dice fall where they may. In limited circumstances, I might fudge a little - perhaps with a player introduced to the game for the first time or for other reasons.

Death isn't permanent in D&D. Of course, at lower levels, it isn't easy to come back, but then there are always great quest and roleplaying opportunities to deal with it, which are probably more satisfying than putting a ressurection on your gold card.

 

[Ed Cha]

When they hit -10.