When does adding more monsters become too much?

[Dog Moon]

Okay, in a campaign I am in [The Shackled City] we are entering Vaprak's Voice to find *something*. Oh, uh SPOILERS!










Okay, so we enter the place and find a room with 4 Giants. We get our butts promptly handed to us, but manage to escape without either side suffering any losses.

We get another party member, a Summoner, so we should be better off. So we go back in prepared for the Giants. We encounter 4 Giants again. We start fighting and are doing much better this time. A little into it, one person wants to flee, but we don't because this time, we're gonna kill at least one Giant.

We do; we kill a Giant. We're all REALLY happy. However, just as we're about to kill a 2nd and the 3rd is pretty badly injured, we are ambushed by a 3-pronged wave [3 different tunnels into the room]: 1 Giant in heavy armor from one direction [boss, we assume], 2 Ettins from another tunnel, and 3 Ettins from the last tunnel.

Keep in mind that many of our resources [hp, especially] have been used and we had trouble fighting 4 Giants.

So, unless something weird happens, it seems like THIS is way too much.

Would you do this as a DM? [Assuming you had decided to add more Giants, how many would you have chosen?] What would you do as a player if your DM did this?

 

[D'karr]

So, unless something weird happens, it seems like THIS is way too much.

Would you do this as a DM? [Assuming you had decided to add more Giants, how many would you have chosen?] What would you do as a player if your DM did this?

Yes, I'd do this as a DM. It assumes/emphasizes the fact that the giants are prepared for intruders. I imagine the fight with the four giants has taken some time and alerted others. So the DM is keeping the environment dynamic.

At this time your group should assess if it is worth it to keep fighting. In my opinion it is not. So you retreat and look for another way of dealing with the threat. Your group lives to fight another day.

As a player I'd assess the possibilities of success. It seems obvious that the tide has turned in favor of the giants. So I retreat and regroup.

 

[Psion]

Ah... death by perpetual encounter. Gotta love it.

 

[frankthedm]

You got reinforcments and made plans.
Your foes got reinforcments and made plans.

Sounds right to me. You guys worked together and so did your foes.

Keep in mind that many of our resources [hp, especially] have been used and we had trouble fighting 4 Giants.

I am sure the Giants are keeping that in mind. They know your party is a real threat and are converging for the kill.

 

[MerricB]

As a DM, absolutely would I do this, although I note that the number Giants is going to be based on how many are in the complex - when you go back in, there'll be fewer Giants to overcome.

As a player, I'd run very quickly in the opposite direction (or, more likely, use magic to escape. My characters always have ways of escaping).

Cheers!

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, I'd do this as a dm. In fact, you'd be lucky to have only a few reinforcements arriving. If you attack an organized enemy, believe me- they'll have a plan for defending themselves.

As a player? I like to think I understand the value of "cut and run".

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I understand that Shackled City can be pretty harsh on PCs not build with the Complete series in mind too....

 

[Dog Moon]

I wasn't necessarily complaining about the situation [although the fact that escaping in the direction of the exit means passing through 1 Giant and 3 Ettins is freakin' annoying], and I can totally understand the idea of the enemies gaining reinforcements because that occurs in my games too.

And yes, we are now trying to determine how to avoid the 4 opponents blocking our path to freedom.

The question I was trying to ask before and probably only now able to say is 'When adding reinforcements, do you consider how the PCs are and their resources, or do you simply grab a bunch of creatures from the surrounding areas and have them reinforce the original group of monsters?'

So if you believed that adding 6 Ettins/Giants into the mix will utterly annihilate the PCs, do you reduce their numbers by a couple, perhaps having them all come through one entrance and leaving the PCs a way out, or do you not think about the PCs and do what you think would realistically occur?

Or, on the other hand, would you ADD more if you thought the PCs could still annihilate them, even if that means adding creatures to the dungeon who weren't initially there or scraping up every last creature in the vicinity?

 

[danzig138]

The question I was trying to ask before and probably only now able to say is 'When adding reinforcements, do you consider how the PCs are and their resources,

No

or do you simply grab a bunch of creatures from the surrounding areas and have them reinforce the original group of monsters?'

No. I try to figure out what plan the enemy has before the PCs ever get there. You know, "if we're attacked from here, troops from there and there will move to reinforce, but troops in that there will stay and hold their line." And I keep track of all losses, since the PCs are going to $0.05 and $0.10 the enemy.

Of course, depending on the enemy, the plan might be as simple as "Hear clang-bang, go shred".

As a player (which happens only very rarely), I'm a big fan of running like the Flash when necessary.

 

[Dross]

The question I was trying to ask before and probably only now able to say is 'When adding reinforcements, do you consider how the PCs are and their resources, or do you simply grab a bunch of creatures from the surrounding areas and have them reinforce the original group of monsters?'

So if you believed that adding 6 Ettins/Giants into the mix will utterly annihilate the PCs, ....

Adventuring is dangerous and few foes are so stupid and suicidal that they do not prepare against potential attacks (as stated by FranktheDM) just as the PCs might. I've stated this (as DM and player) several times. A proper sense of verisimilitude should be maintained.

Or, on the other hand, would you ADD more if you thought the PCs could still annihilate them, even if that means adding creatures to the dungeon who weren't initially there or scraping up every last creature in the vicinity?

It depends on the situation (going against my verisimilitude attitude above).
Will it make the fight more fun?
Does it serve another purpose to do so (precurser to something else, a method to change adventure direction, a way to finish the adventure to move onto something else, etc)?